122 | Mastering stakeholder alignment in the channel

Jon Busby: Welcome to another episode of the Tech Marketing Podcast. I'm joined by two podcast veterans. Firstly, my co host, Amanda Fitzgerald, who's been joining us on this series of channel focused discussions, but also by another fellow podcast veteran. I'm going to say kind of my incredible. My us equivalent of Amanda, uh, Karen Hartzell, um, who's currently at cradle point, part of Ericsson.

Um, and I'm really excited today to be digging into kind of how we manage stakeholder alignment in the channel for win win. Um, you know, this is a deep conversation. I'm expecting us to run out of time. Um, but, uh, before we get started, let's, let's go around and do some intros. Um, Karen, you've. We've been no strange to the podcast before, but that you've had a very, uh, very journey going through the channel ecosystem.

You know, you've had a lot of experience. We've worked in a lot, many of those companies, uh, together as well. Like your transition has been remarkable. Like what has been, what can you share with us on those experience and how it shaped where you are today?

Karen Hartsell: Oh gosh, you ask an interesting question there. So, um, thank you very much for having me, one of my favorite topics and really timely since I just successfully managed some stakeholder alignments.

I'm looking forward to digging into this one. Timing is good. Um, but you know, I've been, I've been in channel related roles for over 30 years now and in some very traditional, you know, I was in, uh, channel programs early in my career at 3Com. Uh, I stayed in that channel program lane really through. Some of my journey into, uh, like checkpoint PGP.

So traditional security networking companies that go to market through the channel. And then I spent some time on some maybe less traditional, uh, types of channel companies. So I was with Intuit for 12 years, who, um, You know, people, people know into it well for QuickBooks and TurboTax. And there, I also had a channel role, but it was working with accountants as a channel, working with developers at channel, you know, there were some non traditional types of channel roles, really expanding in communication and innovation roles.

Um, and so that really stretched me into. Thinking about channel and channel enablement and influence and developer and this idea of partner ecosystem more broadly. And so now for the last almost year and a half, I've been with Ericsson. I joined through cradle point, which was a company Ericsson acquired in 2020.

And we are now the enterprise wireless. Uh, division and I leading our global partner program. So it's almost, you know, a coming home for me in many ways. And so I think back to my early days, even at 3Com and some of these security companies. And so it's very much that traditional networking security that go to market through the channel, but really an exciting time to bring all of these really interesting and diverse approaches and innovation aspects to the role.

So very, very exciting times at Ericsson enterprise.

Jon Busby: Awesome. So let's, let's dive straight into the topic today. Um, you know, we're challenged that we always face whenever we're doing with anything in the channel. And Amanda, this is actually where I've probably first met you was on this particular discussion where we were talking about channel sales and marketing alignment, but is, is bringing together stakeholders to get behind our vision.

As you've mentioned, Karen, we've just been doing this on a project together. Um, you know, where do we get started? Like Amanda, what's at the tip of your tongue when you're thinking about how we think about channel organizational structures?

Amanda Fitzgerald: Absolutely. So stakeholder alignment to me, what that immediately conjures up is sales and marketing alignment.

Now, We in marketing have got lots of stakeholders and we'll dive deeper into that further down the podcast. But sales and marketing alignment, we've traditionally always been in silos and that has served us well. Um, however, you know, speaking the same language, having the same, um, measurements of success, actually being in the same room around the same table and building our strategies in conjunction with each other.

I think that is absolutely what springs to mind when I think about stakeholder alignment. Um, gone are the days where sales would be given their revenue targets. Um, Disseminate those targets to their regions. And then they ask marketing to help them build a pipeline. Those days hopefully are behind us.

Um, in my time at red hat for the last seven years, I've been really lucky where marketing has had a seat at the table when sales were putting together their strategy for the forthcoming year. So sales and marketing did sit around the same table and planned their, their calendar strategy together. Um, and that was fantastic.

So also, um, a lot of the partner engagement, the partner go to market strategy with the big partners. Once again, that was always sales led because the sales team owned the relationship with the partners. So when they did their partner planning and the partner go to market strategy with each of the Alliance partners or big tier one partners or Plattingham partners, whichever, How you, however you like to label your big revenue delivering partners, that was always a sales driven engagement with the partner.

Now marketing does get a seat at that table. So there is joint sales and marketing go to market and planning at partner level. So that's even more exciting. So my, my, my. Three years, my last three years at Red Hat, I was lucky enough to actually go through, um, we called it champ planning, which is, um, channel, um, advanced marketing planning with partners.

I was lucky enough to go through the training. And once again, that was reserved for salespeople, but the senior marketing leaders are The value that we added to that discussion made it a fully baked strategy. It wasn't just how do you deliver sales, how do you build pipeline to enable those sales numbers to be hit?

So sales and marketing alignment is the first thing that springs to mind. Yeah.

Jon Busby: When we talk about channel organizational structures, right, you know, In my head raises so many questions about where channel, where should it even sit? Um, like, so who that Karen, you've had an incredibly varied careers. You've just, as you've just gone through, you know, we were talking about your three com days earlier, which is just fascinating.

Um, like where has channel reported in? Is it, is it, it's not been the same in every organization, has it? It's always varied.

Karen Hartsell: You know, I've been at companies that are a hundred percent channel. So. Ericsson Enterprise, for example, we, you know, everything we do is channel. So, so channel, there is a channel organization that sits along, you know, we are a sell with sell through.

Um, and so our, ultimately our channel organization and our sales organization roll up to the, to the chief revenue officer. So we are aligned. We are both part of the sales organization. The two sort of variables that I've seen within my career, and that's been pretty common, but the, um, the programs team and the partner marketing team, and I've run both.

And so I've literally had a foot in either side. I've, uh, multiple times started in a role reporting to the CRO and then moved to the CMO, um, again, CMO and moved back to the CRO. Um, And, and, you know, a lot of times it depended on whether I had marketing under my role in addition to programs or if they were separate roles.

So right now. Program side programs and operations. I am rolling up under the sales organization. It's closest to the customer. So I like that because the people who manage the channel are, you know, are my colleagues, my leader, you know, so it's, so it's very close to the work. I like the structure. I think it makes a lot of sense.

And then the marketing piece rolls up to the CMO. Now, because we are all channel all the time. The whole company on some level supports the channel. So, so it's not like, that's not my job. That's your job because we are a channel, we are a channel business unit. And so it's a hundred percent. Um, I think I, you know, when I've been at companies where that's not the case, I think that's where the, that tension that you're talking about, Amanda tends to exist a little bit more where we have people whose job is, you know, You know, I'll talk about into it, right?

A lot of the sales happen. It's click to buy on the website, right? We have retail channels. We have accountants as influencers and as a channel and so there you know It took a little bit more work to drive alignment between the different Stakeholders because sometimes there were competing priorities there and you know and competing for the numbers but I you know for me on the program side, I I have been most effective in my role when I have had a seat at the table really alongside of the sales organization.

Amanda Fitzgerald: Me too. Absolutely. So regardless of reporting line, You can, you can forge alignment regardless of where you functionally sit within an organization. But I, I totally agree with you. Probably my most successful time as a marketing leader is when I reported into the Amir channel sales leader when I was at Kaspersky, because All of a sudden I got access to all the sales data because I sat within sales.

I didn't have to beg, borrow or steal or coerce someone to share a report with me because I sat within that sales organization. I had automatic access because a lot of our reporting. Was Salesforce driven and depending which function you sat within, you got different credentials on which data you had access to.

So as a, if I sat within marketing, I would have to beg, borrow and steal data. If I sat within sales, I had automatic access. It's just mad, but it's mad and sad because we're all on the same side.

Jon Busby: I guess, I guess, and this is, this is a really interesting conversation actually, that's, uh, that I had with some people, some senior CMOs.

Um, senior CMOs, CMO senior, um, some CMOs out at the A and A's, um, where we were debating around kind of the evolution of that role. You know, Karen, you've just mentioned how you're a hundred percent channel focused organization. You you're on the sales, essentially on the ops side, which means you report into the CRO and a sales leader whilst marketing, you know, partner marketing reports into CMO.

That's something that's probably one of the most mature organizations I have. I've come across, um, quite often part of marketing, we're not just part of marketing, but partners generally, even, even with a business that might be doing 80 percent of their sales through the channel is the kind of the lost, the forgotten uncle, like they just get passed from pillar to post and not thought about.

So the fact that, that it's that, that mature is great. But do you think there is this discussion we were having with these other CMOs was actually there's. The, the CMO role itself, and I'm gonna focus on the CMO role here, but it isn't just about the C marketing. The CMO role itself needs to change based on the type of organization, each type of organization they, they operate in.

So if you are in a SaaS organization, you might be much more aligned to being a CRO. Um, while if you are in a, um, uh, a product organization, you might be a CPO, you might be a chief product officer, and that your role needs to flex based on how the business makes money. You know, I'm gonna put out there to say.

Actually, are we seeing an evolution, like, where, where, where partners and channel reports up to a board level and why not? Why are we not seeing that?

Karen Hartsell: I have yet, so I have yet to see a channel chief report up to, or, you know, like our channel chief still reports to the CRO, but we have a channel chief and the CRO, you know, is a very, you know, embraces channel.

Um, but it's a really interesting question because is the. Channel a dedicated function or a piece of every function like that's kind of what we're saying. And so for 100 percent channel company, then I would think everybody has some level of channel responsibility. Our operations need to understand how we fulfill given that.

And we're not just channel. We're two tier. We're distribution. So when you think about. Who needs to have channel responsibility? I would argue everybody does because they play an integral part of the awareness, the selling, the fulfilling, the supporting, the renewing, the expanding, like all of those touch points.

They bring, you know, they're so close to the customer. They bring valuable feedback on feature functionality. So I think channel, when you start thinking of channel as an isolated function, I think that's where you struggle to drive alignment. When you can get everybody to embrace channel as a component of their role and feel some sort of obligation to an outcome for the channel, then I, like that to me was step one in driving alignment.

I know I'm fast forwarding to some of the conversation, but if you're going to drive alignment, everybody needs to feel like they have a personal stake in the outcome. And if they feel like channels, somebody else's jobs, somebody else's responsibility, and don't have any sense of personal accountability or responsibility, I think that's always going to be pushing a big boulder uphill.

Jon Busby: I actually, I think you've hit the nail on the head there, which is, and I hadn't thought about it that way. Like I was always, I personally, I was pushing for, we need a CPO. There needs to be a chief partnership officer or chief channel officer, whatever we're going to call it. But if for businesses where so much of their revenue is driven by the channel, it should actually be.

Devolved and be a be a key part of every true every structure,

Amanda Fitzgerald: I'm going to play devil's advocate here. No, come in. Yes, I've seen I've seen both happen. So Karen and I have both seen both happen where you've had a separate partner ecosystem organization, and I've seen that devolved, um, disassembled, broken it up into its pieces and then put into each of each demand gen, digital marketing.

I've seen it happen in the seven years in my last company. So here's the thing. If you don't have a dedicated channel chief, then there's nobody spearheading the movement. If you devolve it into each department, And there is a business case to say, yes, you do need those departments do. Everyone should have a channel lens.

Everyone should. However, if you don't have a channel chief, who's going to drive that lens? Because without a spokesperson, without a figurehead, without an evangelist, people will say they're doing it. But show, who's going to hold them accountable? Show me, show me you're doing it, show me how you're doing it.

That's why you need the channel chief. And I don't really, and going back to your point, John, should it be someone at sea level? We can argue that forever and a day and we're never going to get that resolved on today's call. But I think you do need, um, and, and also I'm going to, Also say something else controversial channel is a term that I don't use so often anymore.

So I'm now transitioning to using partner ecosystem. And in my mind, the difference between channel and partner is ecosystem channels. People, when you say the word channel, especially in my last organization, they think of it only as two tier distribution. They think of it as distributors and solution providers, and you're just selling through the channel.

And that's a very traditional view of what channel marketing is. So in the new world of partner ecosystem marketing, the difference in my mind is partner ecosystem is how do your partners align to your customers, your target customers, and what type of partners do you engage with? And those types of partners who have the customer focus that we're trying to you.

Um, leverage that partner relationship with our customer base. That ecosystem of partners can be a combination of ISV, GSI, solution provider, and some partners are all three of those. They are independent software vendors, as well as systems integrators, as well as solution providers. So that traditional, um, stereotypical partner type.

I think still exists, but partners are now hybrids of those types. Also, when you go to market with your partner ecosystem, and you're trying to engage with your target customer, it could be several partners that are involved in a single sale. So that's why partner ecosystem is now the way to think.

Jon Busby: Yeah.

Amanda Fitzgerald: But it's only the likes of me and Karen who can educate the rest of the company on what the difference between channel and ecosystem, part of the ecosystem. So you do need subject matter experts like myself and Karen to educate the rest of the company. So that's why you need a separate function.

Jon Busby: Yeah.

You're exactly right. And I use the words indifferently. Interchanging me. I probably shouldn't, but this comes into a point. Actually, Karen, we were discussing yesterday. We discussed a lot this way yesterday. Like I

Karen Hartsell: think early in the week, I know it's

Jon Busby: only, it's only Wednesday. We're recording this. The, um, the, uh, I think there was a, I think there was a gap.

I think I agree with what we're all saying here, which is it doesn't have to be devolved, but there needs to be someone that spearheads it. And the biggest gap I'm hearing over and over again, loud and clear is there's an education gap. Wouldn't you agree, Karen, from your side?

Karen Hartsell: I would. I want to pull on that thread, Amanda, though.

I completely agree. I, and I will say the other strange dynamic I ran into when we were using the term channel was that my time at Intuit, they thought of channel as marketing channel, right? So when you said channel, web was a channel. Yes. Direct sales was a channel.

Amanda Fitzgerald: So they're all, they're all routes to market.

Well, routes to market and channel can be, Sometimes confused. It's a route to market, definitely. And

Karen Hartsell: historically, I've always meant partner. Yes. They meant all routes to market. Yes. And so, I absolutely agree, partner ecosystem. And partner ecosystem is the phrase. And then to get onto, And, you know, point John, you know, in my time at Ericsson, one of the things that I've been really championing is a transformation in the language that we use.

And what I keep saying is I don't want to label the partner, I want to label the motion. And the reason that's so important is that hybrid model that you were talking about, which partners didn't want to be labeled a reseller. They're like, I do more than reselling. I do services. I do customization. I have my own products that I've now built.

I mean, you know, I do embedded work Like don't just call me a reseller. That's not what I am And then on the flip side I would have questions like well what's the difference between the var reseller program and the carrier reseller program like We don't have to reseller programs. It's that's just a go to market motion.

We have one go to market motion. We call resell. That's what it looks like when we do this. It created a lot of confusion and so really educating and and creating a visual, you know, I call it the our partner ecosystem placement, like really creating a visual. And whenever you have the opportunity, so whether it's a marketing team or a new operations leader that's joined the company, really using that as an opportunity to say, Hey, lemme talk to you about our partner ecosystem.

These, those are the different go to market motions that we have in play. Partners play in both. We label the motion, not the partner, right? So now I start hearing other people say that we labeled the motion, not the partner. Very exciting because we're making progress on it. But where it got really interesting, and I think this is around again, back to that stakeholder alignment is when you can put it into.

So what's in it for me? Why should I care about this partner ecosystem? And I was talking to some of our marketing leadership and I said, look, this partner ecosystem actually creates incredible competitive advantage. The fact that we have these different go to market routes that we support, meaning. We support, right?

So if I'm a customer and I want to buy and I buy from Ericsson Enterprise Wireless division, I can choose how I want to pay because they support both a resale and a managed service. So I can choose between Cap ex and op ex I can choose who I want to buy from because they have a diverse ecosystem of partners that have broad Geographic coverage I can choose what types of services I want to buy Because they have standalone services partners who can come in with extreme expertise or I can choose from A reselling partner that also has services.

I can also choose the technology that will work alongside it because they have a technology alliance program. So I can quickly see which technology aligns with it. And I know that not one solution ever works. One solution fits none. So So this partner ecosystem, because I'm buying from a company that has this really robust and diverse partner ecosystem, what they're giving me as a customer is choice.

I have choice on how I want to buy, who I want to buy, what I want to buy. And that's very powerful when we market, not only do we have great technology, But we have great technology with this incredible partner ecosystem that provides you with point choice. And it's actually a feature we should market to our customers.

We should market the power of that.

Jon Busby: I honestly, I don't know. That's been one of the clearest definitions of ecosystem that I've had for a long, long time, which is it provides customer choice. I just want to, I know I'm going to take us off on a tangent away from the channel for a moment, but obviously for our listeners, many of you are not just channel you're in the, in the marketing space.

This is also why you need to invest in brand. Because. The brand helps to drive the demand that the channel then fulfills. Right. If I'm using your terminology, could that, Karen, you taught me that, if I got that the right way around, right? Channel

Karen Hartsell: doesn't, doesn't create brand, they fulfill brand, right?

Jon Busby: Exactly, exactly. Vendor

Karen Hartsell: has to create brand.

Jon Busby: Exactly, which is why brand, like, again, making sure that you're top of people's mind when they're thinking about it is, is right. Getting your partners to go and drive your brand is, is not going to work. Um, but I, I love that, love that thinking around it. Yep.

Produces, creates customer choice. It's fantastic.

Karen Hartsell: If you start with a customer, you'll usually get the right answer. And I think that's why, back to your point, Amanda, having that channel champion there is really, really important, but making sure that channel champion can still speak in the language of customer is equally important.

We're not solving for, none of us are solving for ourselves or our partners. At the end of the day, we exist as a business to solve for customer need. And then solve it so well that the customer is willing to pay for it, right? We're all in a commercial business here. So if we always start with a customer, what's the value to the customer?

If you can answer that question, then you're going to find that point of alignment that you can work back from.

Jon Busby: I want to bring us back to, back to our Orgstruck, not that I want to take us away from that, that trail of thought, but I want to bring us back to this question that Amanda, you posed just in our prequel.

So I'm going to let you jump in with this question, actually, Amanda, what, you know, this. innovation can be scary. So take, take us away.

Amanda Fitzgerald: Yes. So I'm going to dive into this as well. So, um, alignment is one thing. Alignment with your stakeholders is one thing, but I think as partner ecosystem marketers, I think we.

are very innovative. We're looking for ways to engage better with our partners to address customer needs. So just by having that in our job spec, we are creating new content and creating new ways of engaging with our partners. So bold statement. I believe we are not, we embrace change and therefore are not afraid of taking calculated risks.

Is that true? off our senior execs though, because by definition, our senior executives have got responsibilities to our shareholders, our board of directors, um, our investors. Um, so here's the question, how risk averse are you? are our senior execs and how do we as partner ecosystem leaders, marketing leaders, how do we overcome what could be an obstacle?

What could be a challenge? How do we make them more comfortable with the risks that we feel comfortable taking when we're engaging with our partner ecosystem? Now that's a long way of setting it up, but um, so, so the, uh, So the debate is, how do we overcome risk averse senior execs?

Karen Hartsell: Interesting. Um, so I, I mean, I've just gone through this.

I've been through quite a journey on this one lately. So it's a timely question. I think, um, I think it's easier to align on a problem statement or an outcome than it is to align on an idea. So I start with, I don't try to get the executive to align on my idea. I try to get alignment on the outcome that we are trying to drive.

And the pain that it addresses because it's usually much easier even a risk a person risk averse Person can align on a problem statement. So I drive alignment not on an idea, but on a problem statement Um, because there's an infinite number of ways to solve a problem that is by you know, that is innovation So I align there and I tried To get real deep embracing of the problem statement and that was done through data Through you know, like get your executives talking to partners like because you're really close to the work You're hearing from the partners all the time.

So use your partner Advisory Council get those executive meetings with a partner get executives talking to partners hearing directly and And really align on not only the problem statement, but the opportunity that comes if we solve the problem. So if right now our partners have lots of manual processes, if they have lots of pain around that, that, you know, we, we sort of align on, okay, foundationally, I can align on that's a problem statement, but if I'm a sales leader and I hear that there's a bunch of manual processes, what I'm hearing is that I've got sales quota carrying people doing non selling activity.

Oh, okay. Now I found a problem that my CRO also does not like, right? So I've driven alignment there, but also when I hear partners say, you know, and this has been true since the start of time, my boss currently says this, I love this. Partners will sell good enough, but easy over best, but difficult. Right.

So what we found is partners universally loved our solution, love our technology, love our support. Love, uh, like love that, but difficult to do business with meant sometimes they will choose something that is not as good, but it's good enough, but it's so much easier because time is money. So when we started getting alignment around, this is the cost.

Of what we're doing today. So if we solve this problem, the upside is more selling hours for our sellers who are embracing, you know, having to deal with this manual and partners more likely to recommend our solution because we are now not only good enough, we're the best, but we're easy. So when we can fix those things, here's, here's the outcome we're going to see.

And then we start putting data, like here's how many manual hours are. Distributors. Here's how many hours we're taking away from our sales team. So we put data. We worked with our channel, uh, sales leaders say, how much time does your team spend on these manual tasks? So we got real strong alignment around here's the cost.

Of what we're doing right now the pain and so we could start to then project forward. So the upside is If every partner account manager gets hours back, what does that turn into? Can they manage more partners or manage the partners? They have more deeply how much revenue could that generate? We looked at things like deal registration programs really difficult when deal registration programs are really easy Industry data says we should look at about a six percent lift in deal registration, right?

So we could start to put Numbers to it. We could put ROI calculation to it. So that was the first step is, is getting executive leadership brought into the problem and then really putting together a vision. And I put a three year vision and really, I like to put themes to things. So, you know, the theme of the first year is addressing critical gaps.

And then we, and then we hit industry parity and then we actually have an experience that's so good. We have a differentiated experience. And so putting that into a three year roadmap that. A chief operating officer who maybe doesn't live this every day could still understand thematically. Okay. There's what we're doing.

And then being really clear, here's what I'm asking for in the numbers. And here's the outcome. I think this is going to drive and. Really being clear about the numbers at the end of the day, the numbers, but it all started with aligning around the problem statement. If you get, you know, and when I when I hear it played back from leaders that say we need to address the manual processes we have with our partners as an example.

When a very senior leader says that at a meeting, I know we've won that. Like, check! We have hit that mark. We have broad executive alignment around the problem statement. So now we can start to talk about what we need to do about it. And then you bring, bring forward a problem. Then you got to get all your stakeholders in a room and Like, I'm, it's the hardest thing in the world to do, but the first person you need to call is your biggest detractor.

Like,

Amanda Fitzgerald: who is the person who is

Karen Hartsell: most like, you know, and I think when you're young in your career, the temptation is I'm going to avoid Tony because Tony is always going to disagree. You know, those, those sort of like, nope, that is the person. First phone call you need to make,

Amanda Fitzgerald: but that comes with experience that comes with experience and confidence because you and I have been there.

Yeah, and now, and I don't know about you. I'm now no longer afraid. So, so we've grown in courage. We've grown, as you say, the biggest detractor, you have to make your biggest fan

Karen Hartsell: because otherwise they're going to detract behind your back. It's good. They're one way or another. Bring them in, understand their pain point.

We're all people. We're all trying to succeed. Assume that they are not like personally out to get you. Understand what their detracting is about. There's usually something really good underneath it. So for example, we have resource constraints. And so part of my solution was bringing forward, not just a technology, but incremental resources to help deploy that technology.

Because I knew that that was my detractor's number one concern. Way too many priorities, way too few resources. So understanding my detractors objection was going to be resource related. And if I could help address that, that my detractor was actually going to become a supporter

Amanda Fitzgerald: and advocate,

Karen Hartsell: that was huge.

Don't avoid the detractor. Like it's so hard, but make them your first phone call.

Amanda Fitzgerald: Totally. And, and be courageous. Uh, we talk about curiosity all the time. I don't think any of us need, need to be encouraged to be curious, but courageous. But for the right, in the right way, as you say, ask the question, what, what do you think is that is, is, is stopping us doing this and

Karen Hartsell: open minded and

Amanda Fitzgerald: be brave enough to open,

Karen Hartsell: yeah, and open minded enough to change.

Based on what you hear. Yes. You may have to change your approach.

Jon Busby: Yeah, exactly. I was going to say like, it's all also about having a growth mindset yourself. You know, you need, this is about bringing them, bringing them along on that journey. Um, I love that. This vision piece is something that I've been sitting on sitting with a lot recently, Karen, since, since we've come up with some of this last year, which is.

I have that cartoon in my head of like, everyone has different expectations of, you know, we're building a swing and everyone, the customer thinks it looks like this and the salesperson sold it like this. And, and actually I think it's, there's something powerful about just spending a bit of time during it out and explaining it, um, in a way that isn't, uh, a top level, you know, title, I think you need to go a little bit deeper and actually make it something people can.

Touch, touch, feel, experience. And I tend to tend to always think about this as it needs to be good enough that someone, it's not a blank sheet of paper. It's, it's something that someone can violently disagree with. Um, like if they don't, if they don't agree with it, they can come in at least have an opinion about where it's wrong.

Um, so I, I, I think that we're, we're missing that vision piece now with too many transformation projects, be them in the channel or not. Um, uh, so I, that's something I've really changed my mind. You

Karen Hartsell: know, and I, I love what you're saying there, John, because I think good. The most difficult thing to overcome is not disagreement.

It's indifference. I can, I can deal with strong agreements, great, right? And you know when you've got strong agreement, like, I got an advocate here. Strong disagreement is still clear. Why do you disagree? What's the problem? How do we, indifference though, man, that is, I, I will take disagreement over indifference any day of the week.

Jon Busby: No, but it's, it's not just, it's not just, sorry Amanda, it's not just indifference. It is, it's, if you give someone too much choice, it paralyzes them. So it is, it's not, uh, it's not just around, uh, you know, I don't really have a view on polka dots. Um, it's, it's more like you've got to, if you're giving someone a blank sheet of paper, they just don't know where to start.

You've got to give someone a place, a way to start. Sorry, Amanda. I jumped in there. No,

Amanda Fitzgerald: no. But what Karen's quite right in saying, um, you can change the vision as well based on people's strong opinions. But you're right. If, if, if you don't know what they're thinking, And silence is not consent. Silence is definitely not consent.

And I've learned that the hard way. I've learned that. I'm thinking if, raise your hand if you disagree, nobody raises their hand. So you think you've got consensus and agreement, but you do not, because silence is not consent. And also, silence is apathy. They, they haven't engaged, they haven't bought into your vision, they're just, they're not even nodding, there's just nothing, there's silence, and silence is not consent.

So you have to have verbal agreement, but the vision, you're right John, the vision is something you can all look at and hopefully understand, and if you bought into the vision, then you need a verbal and a physical nod of the head, and a verbal agreement. Are you convinced this is the right direction to go in?

And you have to literally go round the table. And ask every single person, every one of those decision makers, the joint decision makers, are, are you clear on the vision, and are you in agreement this is the direction we're going to take? Because if they're not, say now, and then you redefine the vision, because you're redefining, and you're modifying the vision, Until you get that consensus around the table.

Or

Karen Hartsell: go back to your problem statement. And this is why, that's why I always like, do we all agree that this is a problem that we need to solve? Because it may be that the vision isn't the problem at all. It's like, yeah, that's as good as any vision. We just don't think any of this is a priority. We, we don't.

This isn't a problem. We, we are not aligned on the problem statement. So if we're not aligned on the problem statement, we're not aligned on the need for any vision, let alone this vision.

Jon Busby: So I want to start bringing us to, to wrap this up here. Cause I've got, you've all been very agreeable with me. Like we just talk about disagreeing and everyone keeps agreeing with me.

Let's stop it. I'm going to, I'm going to try and be divisive here, but I think you're probably going to agree with me on this on this one as well. So I want to kind of summarize this as our learnings for our listeners. Um, I'm really I, I broke it down to three things, but I'm going to go around the room and see what everyone else wants to add.

So the first one for me is you need to understand the way that our organizations are structured are important for you to understand which people you need to bring on that journey. Um, so I put that as a maturity of your channel organization. That can mean a lot of things depending on how you're structured, how you make money, how important, uh, your partner ecosystem is the second one.

And this comes to the point you made Karen, you've got to understand your problem statement and have clarity. But the most powerful thing is you then got to create a vision. That's based on outcomes. So those are my three learnings. Like understand who you need to bring on that. Get on the bus. Understand where the bus is going.

And then have a vision. Draw the map to, to, to get there. Um, but what am I missing from that plan?

Karen Hartsell: I disagree. I don't disagree. We're not going to disagree. I think, um, that in terms of stakeholder alignment, you know, There's always the whiff on what's in it for me, right? You know? And so I think as you are going through and you're understanding your organization, the impact, it's really also probably understanding that what is the pain point for that stakeholder?

And it may not be one universally, right? So you may need to understand at least the nuances. Um, and I'll just add, don't forget your support functions, like I think it's really easy to look at and say, okay, well, sales, marketing, maybe engineering, don't forget about like finance,

Jon Busby: it or legal, legal, right?

And so you don't

Karen Hartsell: forget about your support functions because oftentimes they are the detractor that comes in and disrupts everything you're trying to do because you didn't consider an impact on. You know, I want to do a rebate. Everybody's great. We can afford a great, great, great finances. Like, do you know what a nightmare this is for me?

No, I don't have the resources to support that. We didn't bring them up. We, we missed a stakeholder. So don't forget your supporting functions. Think very, very broadly about, and, and when in doubt, go ask, just go ask.

Jon Busby: Amanda, any final comments? Yeah.

Amanda Fitzgerald: My, my final comment is, um, Who do you, how do you align with all of your stakeholders?

Cause you're right. The, the obvious stakeholders are your sales leaders are your, um, direct marketing leaders, your account based marketing leaders, but there are a lot of other teams that you need to align with and you write about, you know, offerings and, um, you know, three year deals, finance, and, um, the, the, the team that, that, um, do all the skews, all the sales operations, even down to country level, because you might get agreement at global, you might get agreements at regional because I was in a global role and a regional role, but then if it isn't carried forward to country level, it, no matter how fantastic the program is or the offering is, it will fail.

Karen Hartsell: Such a good point. So getting

Amanda Fitzgerald: your RACI, your roles, you know, your roles and responsibilities, who your influences are, who's contributing as well as need to be informed, your RACI becomes key as well. Yep. So it's not just stakeholder alignment, it's RACI and I'm a spreadsheet. fanatic and I've not found a better way of doing racy other than in a spreadsheet, but if you find a better way of doing it, then please share.

Jon Busby: Great, great point. It's been a, it's been another absolutely fantastic podcast. I'm glad, you know, well, it's been great to Karen for you to be back on. I'm sure you won't be a stranger. I'm sure I'll have you back on in the next, next six months or so talking again about the channel, but both for joining me on today's tech marketing podcast.

Thanks for having me.