137 | How real narratives go beyond the template and transform B2B marketing

Jon Busby: Welcome again to the Tech Marketing Podcast. I'm very, very pleased to be joined in the virtual recording booth by Jamie, a consulting CMO at Pentaho and TEDx presenter. So no, no, uh, big expectations for today, but I'm also really pleased to be joined by two fellow twogetherers. Uh, Minaz, you've been no, um, you've been a guest in our podcast.

No, you know, you've joined us, joined me in this virtual recording booth and the physical recording booth a fair few times. Uh, but a new guest today, Vicky, Vicky is one of our account directors. So Vicky and Minaz, welcome to the podcast.

Jaymi Bauer: Thank you. It's so good to be here.

Jon Busby: Really excited to go through some of your thoughts today.

You've had a brilliant career in both brand and marketing, but Pentaho is your first exposure in B2B. That's, that's, that's right, isn't it? So, like, how was that move going from B2C to B2B, um, both in terms of some, some of the differences and some of the things that are most similar?

Jaymi Bauer: Um, yeah, it was fascinating.

The differences stood out immediately. Um, as I sort of, I was brought in actually to craft a narrative for a data management platform, um, by, uh, a woman who knows my work in the BBC world, uh, Maggie Laird, and I'm like, yeah, sure, story for data management platform. I do stories, you know, this is my career. I, I'd love to get in there and see, you know, how I can weave a tale.

And as I started looking, you know, of course, at the product within it, like the competitive set and the industry, um, I was like, holy smokes, everyone sounds the same. I can put any logo on any other data management platform and it's going to work. And that was a big difference in B to C, you know, the, the voice, the.

The personality, you know, we try to make it very human. We put avatars together, not just for our target customers, but for ourselves. Um, you know, a good consumer brand, you can imagine what car they drive, you know, what labels they put on their bodies, but it was apparent that in B2B, um, I don't know. That work's not done.

And so I just, I put myself in the position of listen, listen, listen, listen. And then, you know, as I began to get demos of the product from the internal team and, and hear their stories about how long they'd been working there and you know, what they believe, um, I was like, Oh, well, it's just the same. It's just the same as consumers.

Um, these are just people. Who show up to work and make stuff and sell it to other people. And, um, particularly for Pentaho, Pentaho has been around for a long, long time. And, you know, it talk about being able to trust somebody with your data, somebody who's done it year after year, after year, and is used by all the big companies, um, also having such a legacy.

The user interface, for example, was it like some snazzy startup put in a bunch of UX and UI design? Um, and I began to get just a lot of apologies for user interface. And, you know, that's I think some of that B to C all of us now as consumers. And, and the, the empowerment we have with, you know, these computers that are in our pockets and all of the world's data at our fingertips, there's not a lot of difference between, you know, consumer and business these days, you can stand up a business if you want like this.

And, you know, we all sort of now think everything needs to look super snazzy and, and colorful and like, you know, almost like. Gamification was such a, a word that everyone started to use and I just was like, huh, you guys are like radically simple. I mean, any, my, my last role is CMO. We had a complete in house agency and to get any work done, we were spending.

You know, millions of dollars a month on paid media. And, um, to pull a report, we had to go put a ticket in to the data team to put a report together and give us results on what we were doing. And I was like, wait, if we were using Pentaho, it's drag and drop. Like every single marketer in the marketing orgs could pull our own reports.

You know how much time and money that would save us and how much efficiency we would find. And so I started to understand like this. You know, apology that I was getting for them thinking they need to be more like B2C brands and like super sexy and cool was just, I don't know, that's misplaced too. So, I think I went around and about on your answer.

The similarities and the differences, you know, yeah, these are a bunch of people who show up and make really good stuff to sell to other people. And the differences that, you know, sometimes they think they need to be swanky when they don't. And they're missing story almost across the board in B2B, in my opinion.

Jon Busby: I couldn't agree more. Like, and actually we were talking beforehand in the green room, you know, that there's a particular passion from some of our other podcast guests as well, that you need to bring more story to the table. There's one particular thing you started with there though, Jamie, that I want to drill down into, because it's a trend we're seeing across B2B massively at the moment, because you, you, you started with this concept that B2C and B2B is still just selling to people like same same, same, same, but different.

But we've also got this concept now in B2B that just so much of our marketing is the same. Um, and that doesn't just go for marketing, by the way, that goes for almost everything inside the organization. I, I recently had the pleasure talking about talking and speak, public speaking. at the pleasure to keynote a sales kickoff.

And the two people that I followed onto the stage for, uh, you know, uh, before me, we're both dressed the same in this, uh, both look the same. And then I turned up in the, in, in the same jacket and in the same color shirts and the same shoe. Like we are, we, we even get to the point now where we are almost carbon copies of each other.

Um, and it is. You know, we've got to remember that we have to, it's our job to kind of stand out and to, to find what's different in us. So talking about some of the different things at the same and things that different, that really stood out for me. And the answer is like that, that's the power of story, right?

Jaymi Bauer: Yeah. Well, and I'm sure we're going to get here. Um, I've worked, I mean, I've been in marketing for a long time and a lot of people will be inspired by somebody's story, take like an Apple story or a Nike story, and they'll say, we need to do one like that. And they'll want to actually do their version of that great story.

And, um, you guys know this, I say this all the time. The only story that you need is yours. It has to be true. What is your true story? And, you know, I think the problem is people have a hard time finding what's interesting in their true story, which is where, when I come along and I just do a lot of deep listening, there's always something very interesting of your, with your story, if you go deep enough.

Like, what's the beginning of that line? Because at the beginning of that line is like that kindling, like that spark that started something. Um, so as long as it's true, that's my, I mean, that's the last, the first and last thing I'll say for all this, I think I'm also getting a bunch of sun on me, um, is it, it must be true.

And frankly, the easiest thing you're going to do is tell your true story. It's the easiest thing. You won't have to remember it. You know, you're not going to have to keep up with yourself. Just keep showing up.

Jon Busby: I'm going to bring you in here for your view. Like, you know, we've always been saying for the B2B side, that people are always saying that there shouldn't be a difference, but what do you think is that, you know, it's, should there be a difference between B2C and B2C, B2B?

I can't even get it right. It's this time on a Friday. I can't even say it right. Minaz, let's bring you in to, to add some new thought here. No

Minaz Tejani: problem at all, kids. Um, yeah, I think for me, you know, it's the age old argument, isn't it? There's like, is there a difference between the two? You know, I feel that we aren't.

Consumers from 5 31 till, till, you know, 7 59 or wherever we start work in the morning, um, we buy with the same sort of level of, uh, rigor. I think, you know, we look to the same sources for, for credibility. We all want to be part of a cool club, you know, who doesn't, we're, we're tribal by people. And I think that is very much influences different purchasing decisions.

The one thing I would say though, is that I think the data even shows that. The emotion that's often linked with a B2B decision is actually greater than a B2C. And, uh, at the end of the day, you know, if I buy the wrong toaster, you know, I'm going to get some kids that complain about uncooked toast. Uh, if I buy a new pair of trainers, it'll probably be someone in my family or my wife that complains about that, but ultimately.

I'm not going to lose my job. Well, hopefully not unless they're really bad trainers, of course. Um, but realistically, when we start to get into the realms of, of the time of decision makers that we're talking to that, you know, these are real big, could be life changing can be, you know, no one got promoted for, or whatever they're saying is about IBM, you know, they are.

Yeah. No one got promoted for not buying IBM. It's like, these are people's livelihoods. And if you get that decision wrong, that can have some pretty catastrophic or, or, or, you know, really ignite success if you get it right. So I think these decisions are made a lot more emotionally than we probably give them credit for.

And I think it's important that brands do tap into that level of emotion and that fear and aspiration and that joy of buying. You know, a new Hitachi server rack or whatever in a storage rack, or, or even a, you know, Pentaho's latest solution. Like I think when you can associate a level of emotion with that purchase in B2B, I think you're definitely onto a winning strategy.

Um, you know, the name's going to come up a lot, probably during this, right? Salesforce do that. When you buy Salesforce or buy into Salesforce, you're part of that community. You're part of that club. Get that warm feeling inside that I've, I've joined, I joined a tribe and that's powerful.

Jon Busby: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I mean, Minaz, there's a lot to drive into there because I think the other thing we're seeing is, is that lack of buyer confidence as they were, you know, I, I, you referenced the IBM campaign.

No one ever got fired for buying, buying IBM. Um, you know, is, is people, people aren't worried about messing up if they buy a product like that and you need to add those, those, those elements into your brand. But before we dive into it. I want to come back to a little bit of your career, Jamie, because you've worked at some of the most impressive brands, uh, that, that, uh, we've talked, you mentioned a couple in the Xbox, Nike, um, like talking about stories that tell us a story that when did you, when did this realization around the power of stories?

First impact you,

Jaymi Bauer: Oh gosh, I mean, I, I've been telling stories my whole life to be honest, but, um, and I didn't work for Nike. I worked with them when I was at Xbox, but, um, I think I was exposed to such world class branding and story. JDK out of Vermont. I'm not even sure they're still JDK anymore. They were a small little agency in Burlington, Vermont that mostly did like snowboards.

And they won the Xbox account for the Xbox 360, uh, generation. And, um, I sat in that pitch and Michael Jager, the J of JDK came in in just a t shirt and jeans and, um, got up to give his pitch to the team and he took a huge black Sharpie and he wrote this huge X on his t shirt and then he, and then he Ripped it off, like right there at the X.

And he's, you know, his whole thing was. What's, what's so fascinating is what's inside. And if you look at, you know, the logo itself, there is a, some, there's a pulse of green it's in the middle of that X and you know, it became just full on story. It wasn't, we have the greatest console with the greatest, most hard drive space and the fastest online gaming and no speeds and feeds.

No, nothing like that. It was this like pulse of, Something and we got to explain what something was and I don't know maybe people want to look this up. There was The campaign was called jump in and he you know ripped this off and he defended he started like, you know Get into the X, get in, jump in. And there was a brand video that we launched with, which was all it was, was people jump roping, but to this incredible music.

And if you've ever seen like real street jump roping, Oh, it's, it's amazing. And they've got a guy on a bike. Who's bouncing in and jumping rope on his bike. And, um, and it was just, it was my first exposure to really what it is. To start telling stories that, that genuinely move you from somewhere way deeper than a decision to buy or not buy a video game concert.

And yeah, I think that that was, I was really blessed to be part of that, that launch. I, um, and from the very beginning, two years before anybody in the world even knew it was going to exist, I was on that team that was preparing for that launch. So, and. I just carry it from there. And that's, I think probably a big genesis of my wanting to go deep.

And this is a difference B2B, B2C, B2C people want to go deep. And it makes sense to them to get into their heart. You know, if they're going to be selling the trainers that, that propel you as an athlete or, you know, something else B2B or they're wondering what the heck I'm even talking about, why are we going there?

Why are you asking about what I'm passionate about? You know, or what, when I was a kid, what I love to do, what. What does that have to do with anything? But I do that. Those are the questions that I asked.

Jon Busby: I think we need to ask more of that though. And B2B like to Minaz's point around, um, uh, you know, Salesforce being a great example, like the first thing they ever do when they stand up on stage is say, look at all of our admins, look at all of our developers, like this is the reason why you want to be part of this.

You, they build that emotional connection. Um, I also want, there's just one tiny piece of. Evidence or hint you gave out there, you started that campaign two years before the product launch. Like I can't imagine like Vicky, I'm going to bring you in here. Can you imagine like as an account director being like having that much sight of like, we're going to start planning this out and be able to do it.

In B2B we get, we're lucky if we get two months, um, something, uh, like how, like, where are we missing a trick between the two? Cause I just. I find that, that, that's, that's awesome, but also I feel, I feel like almost something we need to, we need to fix because we are driven to all quarterly reporting right now in B2B and it's just breaking things.

Jaymi Bauer: Well, I will say the agency wasn't two years in advance, but the marketing was, obviously. And that, um, my whole premise on building authentic brands that genuinely are, are lit by real human something is that that is the fire that builds product, that recruits talent, that gets investment. That finds partners, that is the fire that creates amazing companies, amazing products, amazing inventory basis, amazing morale, and of course, marketing.

And so the other good thing about Xbox for, I mean, that's sort of where I grew up was marketing was at the table from the beginning, we were at the table and, you know, we, what we learned and what we understood and being just so kind of passionate about the customer. Um, Went in from the, from the base level up, which I think, you know, that's where a lot falls down is a great marketing campaign can, as we say, put lipstick on a pig, but that's, that's short lived and very expensive.

Um, but yeah, that's, that's why I think brand people think it's a logo and a campaign. It's, it's, it's the fire. It's a thing that lights everything. It's the thing that keeps the lights on for the whole company and those companies that do it Well, they have very little turnover of their employees very little turnover of customers They charge higher prices on average all of their most fundamental metrics of health Are better when they're very very true and they stick with it the ones who are just a really great campaign And look good and sound good, but you know, don't don't look behind the curtain Um, and we know those companies the turnover is incredible Employees and and customers and they need to keep discounting to keep customers.

It's just bad business

Minaz Tejani: I think also just to add into that. I think there's um I always think it's interesting as well, looking at, I don't think that a lot, a lot of marketing versus smart marketing is the key to really unlocking like powerful brands. And I always think someone like Ferrari, you know, Ferrari is still globally the most recognized than one of the most valuable brands from a brand sentiment point of view, but they don't advertise apart from obviously the F1 team, but they're not an advertising led company, you know?

And. Still to this day that the value of, of how they make you feel when you even say the name is world class, you know, any, any thoughts on what the secret is to that success as to how the hell that works, because that blows my mind still. And I'm still racking my brain trying to think, how do they, how did they crack that?

Jaymi Bauer: You know, I think that's, uh, we talked about it earlier. Um, so if I back up just a little bit on why even talk about resonance, um, we use a very colloquially we've used it today. Oh, I resonate with that. But what we're really saying is energetically, I'm matching you. Energetically. Before my head, I'm feeling something.

Before I'm thinking it, I'm feeling it. Right. That's how we humans work. And when we are on the same wavelength, another energy term, with someone, um, or we vibe the same way I like your vibe, energetically we match. And this is why I'm saying don't fake it. Because actually You can't fake resonance, you know, you can try to fake it till you make it or put a big smile on and maybe things will start to come around.

But fundamentally, um, I, I know the people that are most important in your lives, you, you have a deep energetic bond with them and you could go kind of through war and be okay at the end because you are tied. Same with companies and, you know, Is a really good example of this. His, his, the depth of his passion for doing what he did as well as he could.

And of course, I got probably Hermes is another one of those, the depth of passion for the craftsmanship and the willingness to say, no, no matter how much money you give me, no, um, not exactly. That's how deep it goes. And because that goes so deep, anybody else who also shares that. comes together. So what resonates congregates literally, if you think about in terms of like just physics, energetically, like attracts light.

It's just how our universe works. And we are the same as consumers and brands. And so the more true they can be, the less they need to advertise. This is kind of what I say. It just keeps coming back to it's good business to be true and to really mine for it and be committed to it. And of course you have to be excellent.

You know, it's, it's not just enough to be true and have a great business. You have to be excellent, but guess who's going to attract the best engineers and the best designers. It's those brands that you can feel and trust because you can feel it, not just think it.

Minaz Tejani: It's also a kind of a slight, I do just exploring certain brands have their, their own sort of brand strategy.

And I, and I don't know, this is just an observation for myself is that I think the brands often fall into like accessible versus untouchable. And You can decide who your brand wants to be. So the Ferraris Porsches, you know, even, I mean, it's pretty, pretty more luxury goods, actually. It's honestly, they create that level of, you know, desire FOMO untouchable.

It's, it's reaching for the stars to be able to really get something like that. And therefore it feels so special. And then all the brands really lean themselves on we're open wherever we're with a brand for everybody. No, not everybody, but you know, we're, we're the brand for the like mind is, and we'll build a community and we'll build, but that element of community and tribe still exist at both ends of the polarity.

Which I always think is important, which still comes back to my point that I think, um, you know, Pentaho do this well as well, right? You've got a good community of people that really like, love the brand. They love the product and they really advocate for it. And I think if you can sell a lot to a small number of people.

That's an incredibly powerful foundation to build a strong business. Anyway,

Jaymi Bauer: I totally agree. Yeah, this doesn't have to do to your point with like luxury and not luxury, you know, accessibility. I think one of the brands I also admire the most is probably Costco, you know, and it's talk about low price, you know, Walmart is the low price leader, but then there's Costco.

Who, you know, we'll give you, you know, product for product, the best value you can possibly get. So why are those brands so different and why do the employees at Costco stick around for, I don't even know their average employee tenure is ridiculous. How long their employees stay around. Um, and also their members, you know, we don't cancel and it's just, you don't need a high price tag to get that sort of.

Loyalty. You just have to care deeply and honestly, which the Costco leadership team does.

Jon Busby: I think Costco is a great example, actually. And I mean, even Walmart, if to some degree from when it's original founding and some of its values that we talk about these authentic brands, what it comes down to me is kind of which values do you resonate with, but let's take a pause there for a moment and just let's each come up with a brand that we really admire and then dive into why maybe, maybe try and figure out.

Jamie, how your model works with it. So Min as you mentioned Salesforce, um, goodness, I need to come up with a brand. I can't think of one off the top of my head. Vicky, I'm going to bring you in, come up with your brand. Which one's resonate with you?

Vicki Sleath: Mine is maybe slightly left to field. It's, it's possibly more on the B2C side of things, but a brand, in my opinion, that's doing really well at the moment is the.

Fitness brand Gymshark. Um, so I am a fitness enthusiast. Um, I, uh, I love this brand. I feel like they understand what I'm looking for, that the way that they market their, um, their collateral very much resonates with me and I think they've done really well. Tapping into the insights that they're capturing through, um, social listening and the things that these influencers are talking about to build a really strong online community, that's actually doing quite a lot of the work for them.

Um, and the brand is going from strengths to strengths. So, I mean, they've, I think they've recently opened up a huge flagship store in Regent street in London. So they've gone from kind of being like a little bit of a kind of online presence into a physical presence. And I think. The reason behind that is that they've got They've got now a real knack and understanding for what their audience want and how to connect with them.

And in my opinion, that's, that's key to their impressive growth. And again, as an advocate of theirs completely unintentionally, I can't escape from them. They're everywhere now. So I think, as I say, they're a, they're a great example of a brand that, um, has done its insight capturing, has learned what its customers want.

And it speaks to us in the way that we want to be spoken to. So, um, Yeah, Gymshark for me.

Minaz Tejani: Just to add on to that, actually, and sort of to dissect it a bit more, you know, Gymshark is a really interesting brand where the story that sits behind it is Ben Francis story. You know, he's the world's youngest billionaire and, or the UK's youngest definitely, billionaire.

At, I think he's 28 now and his story of starting and stitching the gym shark gym gear products in his, um, outside of university in his garage, trying to make, trying to make orders, trying to make orders and, and, and fit them. And then his marketing strategy was to. Uh, essentially use influences in the fitness world.

So he would literally give out free, um, what I call drops, right? So he would drop certain clothing at particular events that were geared around muscle events. And that was it. They just went wild for it. And he built this stir of mystique and community amongst it before it even got to the sort of high level.

And then now he's a global. It's much more of a global brand. It's not as a billion, multi billion dollar brand. I believe they've just opened their first, actually last year, they opened their first barbers in London that you can walk in and get a free haircut and talk about mental health for them. Wow.

So it's this idea of learn, earn, return, right? He's doing that. In, and he's not even 30. So it's a, it's a great brand story. So no, really good example there. That

Jon Busby: all screens authenticity to me, which is Jamie, exactly what you're, what we're preaching here, right. Um, is being authentic.

Jaymi Bauer: Yeah, that's so interesting.

Why are they doing the mental health conversation barbershop?

Minaz Tejani: Um, so yeah, as far as I know, it's basically to do with, um. There's a mental health crisis for suicide amongst young men, particularly in, in EMEA and the UK. UK is the biggest killer of men under the age of 40 is, uh, suicide. So he's just trying to do something about it.

And, you know, it's, it may be, he's been touched by that in his lifetime. I don't know, um, I'd have to read up and come back to you, but, but it's, uh, it's an interesting, you know, he's, he's the character behind the brand, you know, and he is the brand. Um, and it's, when you hear interviews with him, he just sounds like a really Nice guy, really.

I think he's just, you know, he's, he's, he's the entrepreneur that most of us would love to be. Um, if only I was that organized before the age of 30, I couldn't, you know, couldn't imagine it now.

Jaymi Bauer: See, that would be something to any other brand. It would be a stunt. Open barbershops. And you know what? We want to look like we care.

So let's have mental health conversations. You know, those are the things that Um, I see a lot of copycats trying to do, but if it's genuinely, and I'm sure he has some story there that would be like, Oh wow, I, I am so even more devoted to Gymshark now when I understand, you know, how deep this goes. Um, and if it's that deep, it, that's where you can come up with such wild ideas that don't match working out at all, but that are always going to be building, you know, your purchase intent for your next piece of workout clothing.

Jon Busby: The, um, but going from, so going from one brand talking about, um, well, talking about fitness, talking, going to another brand, talking about fitness. Let's, let's go into Pentaho here and talk about the data fit campaign. Now, when, when we were talking about this before Jamie in, in some of our prequels, one thing that blew me away was how this, when it launched internally, not just externally, how it.

Inspired the product team. Like, can you share a little, a little bit of narrative, a little bit of your own story about how this campaign impacted the entire organization?

Jaymi Bauer: Yes. Um, well, I, I talked to Maggie, she gave me the lay of the land. And if you ever look at an org chart, you're going to see how Pentaho, um, is a relatively small business inside of the massive Hitachi.

And the also very big Hitachi Buntara. And sometimes when you're, you know, the small one, you don't get very much attention and sometimes that translates into your level of importance, let's say. And so I think morale was challenged when I first started joining. And I said to her, okay, let's, I'll do the listening.

We'll see the true story that I can hear. And our first audience will be internal. And, um, And it was. And again, like I told you, I started getting apologies on every demo. And I was like, gosh, you guys, you don't understand really how special it is, what you're making. I mean, 73 percent of the fortune 100 are using you.

because you work. You don't have to be fancy and look like everyone else and be the loudest and proudest. And, um, the first narrative I wrote started with the sentence that you guys know. In this age of A. I. And machine learning, it was even before Jenny. I know it became too huge. But in this age, Jenny, let's say, um, if you aren't data fit, you're gonna lose to one who wins.

Your company, if your company isn't data fit, you're going to lose to one who is. And that's just a very easy thing to say. Cause it's just so simple and true. And coming back internally to the company, it's like, let's think about this. Let's take my old organization, for example, who is spending all of this money, who knows how efficiently, probably not efficiently enough.

We could have tanked the entire company because we were by far the largest expense line on the P and L. And. If we had had drag and drop, can you imagine how much more successful we would be? Let's take fitness now, and then we went into just the very human kind of paradigm of being fit or not. You know, fit isn't the most muscly.

The people with the most muscles are sometimes not the most fit. Good luck running, you know, five miles. Uh, do you sleep well? Like all these like levels of health and how, how actually is your heart? Um, they wouldn't do so well. So it's not how you look only. It's fundamentally how well and efficiently you operate.

And if you're efficient at the base level of data, Penn Tahoe, guess how fast I can go? Guess how streamlined I can be. Guess how strong now every employee now that doesn't have to put in a ticket to get some data report back person for person. We are now powerful. That's called strength. That's called efficiency.

That's called agility. That means something happens in the world and we can change it this afternoon. Because everyone now is, is equipped with insights. And so, and, and the one thing I told them is, you know, listen, I know what my resume looks like and you think I'm gonna come here and just give you a big B2C campaign and lipstick.

Again, I'm gonna tell you. The story I'm, I'm, I'm going to market is yours. This is your story. This is your true story. And I would just use all of their own proof points to tell it. And so you would see people start to just walk taller. Uh, the, the, the tone in meetings just started to change. There's a level of pride ownership, like, Oh my God, we really, we are so much better than we thought, you know, and, and then you guys helped us.

Refiner value proposition down to smart simplicity, which really kind of, like I said, it's not just about being muscley. It's just fundamental fitness that matters. And that's actually really simple. And to be smart with our simplicity, thanks to together, um, coining that press, uh, it has impacted how the organization is working now they're setting FYI, 25 business objectives in the big bets, and it all is coming down to the simplicity of things.

Is this. Smart simplicity is becoming a phrase that's being used is this, is this, are we actually using smart simplicity right now? No. Okay. How do we make it simpler?

Jon Busby: Just as a techie and as a product, you know, as someone who's managed products to have like teams that aren't directly related to the marketing care and use that terminology, like that's such a vote of confidence.

Uh, for me and, and shows just how much of a difference marketing can make. Like we, we worry about, should we invest in brand over here? Should, you know, is that going to make a difference? But here we're investing in some, in a message that's, that's making the whole business fitter and more performance. Um, like.

It's just, it's such a powerful message, like bringing Vicky, bringing some of our creative teams into this that have been living and breathing these insights for a while. Like how is it the same inside our teams? How would you describe it?

Vicki Sleath: I think it's, I think we've genuinely been inspired by the data fitness philosophy as we've, we've gone through the way that we have.

Um, adapted our way of working, the way that we have, um, extended the tools in which we, we look for. Um, I see quite a few similarities, I guess, with, with what the data fitness philosophy is, um. To give you some examples, um, we're very much, uh, all about encouraging a learning culture. So what's working? What insights can we capture?

How can we make things better on the move? And I guess in a similar vein, testing and adapting quickly. One of the great things about working with Pensaho is all the different routes in which we could have explored this creatively and there were, there were many, but through all of those different creative routes, we were able to test what worked and what didn't work and equally just ensuring that that always resonated with the message that we were trying to hone in on.

So I think the whole kind of philosophy around taking what's in front of you and testing, working out whether it works or whether it's performing is great. And again, I guess similar also feedback loops. So, you know, short standups with the Pentaho team, with the creative team, just evolving as we go. And, um, again, if I want to liken it to the, to the philosophy of data fitness, it's very much, you know, keep, keep the training going because, um.

We can all get to a point of fitness, but to sustain that fitness is equally just as important. So keeping an eye on what's coming up and how we can do things better just to keep ahead of the game, really. So yeah, lots of testing and reflection, I would say, um, has been sort of inspired through through this process and something that we've sort of developed creatively as we've gone through as well.

Minaz Tejani: Yeah, I'd definitely say as well with the, um, the idea and the theme of data fitness. I mean, the reason why I think it. You know, it's, it's, it's so powerful is that it's timeless in the realistically, when people talk about transformation, transformation always has an implicit end point, like you have transformed and now you're better and you're doing better outcomes and you're getting there by it's very nature that people say that it's a journey, not a destination, but transformation itself that has to land somewhere to be able to review.

But with data fitness, you know, as, as Vicky, you know, being an avid marathon runner and, and, and fitness fanatic. It never stops. You're always, it's an iterative ongoing process that's just getting leaner and leaner or maintaining sustaining or even bulking out and growing as a business, you know, there's so many ways it can go.

But with that kind of narrative, it will, for me, it always makes Pentaho relevant. It means you'll never go out of fashion because data fitness can really kind of grow with you. And, and it's where everyone needs to sort of be, or kind of a data fitness ethos and a mindset is something they should adopt.

So yeah, it's, um, Yeah. I'm

Jon Busby: hoping it'd be

Minaz Tejani: around for a while.

Jon Busby: I love this campaign, but I'm going to take this kind of upper level to the Ted talk that you did, Jamie, and all of it, I'm going to try and get this right. And then you can correct me. It's all about brand resonance. Is that correct? Like if you were to summarize it, like how, how would you, how would you summarize that Ted talk?

Jaymi Bauer: Yeah, it's, it's the, the concept is building a magnetic brand. Uh, back to the idea of what like attracts like, and when you are in your resonance, you become magnetic. And this is, this is just proven out in our personal lives every minute of every day. And brands and businesses are just people who do things for other people.

So it brings it very just human. And I gave the Ted talk in referenced brands, but I think almost as much of my work is actually for leaders is for the humans that are running these companies or leading teams or anything. Um, and we've all had leaders that we will follow wherever they go. We trust them and they prove it every single day.

Talk about like fitness. It's every moment sort of shows who you are and, um, leadership, especially today. I mean, Uh, we're all thinking how much is a I really going to take over, right? It's taking over all of that middle layer of, um, sort of automation. You know, any of the tasks that we do that are very repetitive and the machines are going to do it better.

So guess who's going to get the job? It'll be a machine. Um, so the leader is. Called on more than we've ever been called on and, and, and remaining human, really, really rooted. I, I'm, you guys know I'm in Boulder, so I'll use language that is very unusual in the B2B circles, but stay in your heart, stay true, B, B, B.

Legitimately, you said that I can feel you. And if I feel you and I resonate with you, I'm with you. I want to join you now. And so the leader or the brand, how to build a magnetic brand, how to be a magnetic leader, that's the TED Talk.

Jon Busby: Uh, but, and a key part of that is, and we've talked about it and we've jumped into it in and out of it on today's podcast is uncovering those authentic stories, right?

Uncovering who you really are. Like what tip, Jamie, do you give to try and, you know, we uncovered it with data fit, um, in Pentaho. Like what tips do you, do you have for trying to find that inside a company? I'll find that inside an individual to make yourself more magnetic.

Jaymi Bauer: Yeah, well, the way I do it, when I take companies or leaders through this, um, if you watch the TED talk, you'll know that some, it's been coined a marketing seance, the way I do this, but I will actually ask you questions that don't sound like I understand what you do at all.

It's not in the context of business. I'm not asking about your product, the competitors, the customer, anything like that. I want to know you. Okay. I really do. I want to know what makes you light up. Um, and not just tick, but light up. When I, when you start talking about something, John or Vicki and Manaz, when you start talking about what lights you up, Vicki, I bet it's something with Ronnie Manaz.

I know it's got to be around EDM or, you know, some music creation. John, I'd love to get to know you more, but when you, when you talk about that, you ignite. Your light your eyes light and now I want to know more and so I Facilitate these conversations to get you into that place of lighting up and once you do that now everything just starts to just roll beautifully and You know each of you does great work, but you do it as only you can Guaranteed there are the people who do what you do and John you talked about getting up in the same jacket You know that stage you're different You're for sure different.

And if I get to talk to you more, I'm going to be able to find what that is and getting to that kind of point. And I have a little trick that I do. Um, you have to close your eyes with me. We actually have to envision some things together. And one thing I have you do is invite two people into this.

Workshop to be with you. Um, and they're really the two that matter most. One is a very young you. The one that just, um, didn't understand anything other than do what I love. There were, there's no other should. It's like I wake up and that sounds fun. Let's go do that. There's a very young one in you. And I have you envision what that little one is doing.

And in fact, I want you to, in your mind's eye, I want you to play and I can already see what happens to someone's face when their eyes are closed and they start to play with their very young one again. It's really tender. Um, it's very, very precious. And, and then I ask you to sit with the old one. The one who's at the end very end and looks back and looks at you today and is like, you know I have something to say to you and I have you listen to what they have to say and they get it people get it Like that.

What does the old one have to say to you? and so the you you're now bookmarked by you the wise you the very young wise you the very old wise you and You remember who you are and at the end of this people have a renewed sense of their own brilliance Like never before so talk about lighting up and now we get into story and now what gets you to take and what makes you Magnetic and I guess that's just maybe one of my gifts I can deeply listen and start to play it back and that's where the narratives come from and And it's fun for these people because they're like again like the pentaho team and so much better than I thought.

Oh my gosh And, you know, I don't know if you all have spouses or partners or just best friends when they're lit up, are you not so drawn to them, you know? So this is just talk about smart simplicity. This is as human as it gets. And I'm just trying to build brands. Being very, very human,

Jon Busby: but it's actually such, such a great exercise thinking through.

I'm, I'm, I'm actually, I'm disappointed. I didn't just do that on the podcast, by the way, to close my eyes, to imagine them. I should have done that.

Minaz Tejani: Yeah, I felt like we should have taken a moment to stop and just all of us do it, you know, but I absolutely should have done that. Do you not think that if we did, if we did that, the younger you might look at the older you with disappointment and say, look.

When did you give up?

Jon Busby: When did you give up on fun? Yeah. Why do you go into B2B? Um, the, uh, what are you doing? Um, the, uh, but I, I, she, the previous guest, Jamie was a lady called Rebecca McKenzie at Salesforce. And she had the exact, the same, maybe not the same approach, but a similar, uh, journey, which was, I don't want my, if, if this, if, if this role gets taken away from me, and this really resonated with me, by the way, um, talking about, if this role gets taken away from me, then.

Then is that all that defines me? Like I need to make sure I know what else lights me up. Um, so I think that, I think what you've described there is that how you get to answer that question. I think that's an incredibly valuable exercise. Um, uh, you know, as we've run lots of brand workshops together, right.

We've done quite a few of them. Can you imagine getting any clients to close their eyes and think about that? Like, how do we, how do we bring that into the story of, of B2B and, and. How you bring that to life in a workshop, like, Hey, are we now going to get people to close their eyes and imagine their older selves and their younger selves just

Minaz Tejani: drift off?

Yeah, no, definitely. Um, yeah, you know, I've never, I haven't tried that technique before, but I definitely think there's some value in, in doing, you know, some shape or form of that a hundred percent. I mean, I think. You know, taking people back to kind of who they are, where it all started and why is a really interesting, it's the start of a right path that I think we can uncover some pretty amazing things.

Um, I mean, one of the, one of the things that we often do when developing those, you know, particularly getting into that, that story is I often ask as well. Um, and you know, it could be sales teams, it can be anyone in the business, but primarily, you know. Bringing it back to the customer centricity, you know, when you are with customers, what is it that you say that changes the energy in the room and when have you experienced that?

And I find that often sales teams that we work with such a valuable resource of, and I, I'd say quite sometimes a little bit too quickly dismissed as a valuable resource to that story. And we've had situations where they'll uncover, this is what we talked about. And actually it was the point we brought this different perspective.

And everything changed from that point of view for the customer, for the bank, for bank of America, et cetera, but all right, let's tap into that. And that will often uncover. So the reason why you do that is actually the purpose behind it will unlock the real true value of what that brand brings to the table.

And it's, it's those sorts of like anecdotes and stories I find work really well, and we, you know, we had a similar situation with. Uh, funny enough with, with Hitachi's parent brand with Vantara when we were developing their global messaging and we met person after person, exec after exec, and they all had a different opinion on, on really what they stood for.

And it was one person that just turned up for 10 minutes and he gave us, he was, it was completely enough. He was completely lit up. I mean, he had, he had obviously gone on his, on his, on his ayahuasca journey. Um, but he walked into the room for, for, you know, 10 minutes. And just delivered a quick speech about him spending time with customers and really what the value is.

And that gave us everything that we needed to build an entire campaign. One piece of insight about one hook unlocked a conversation that then drew from all of the rest of the execs, similar stories, similar, and you start to hear the patterns and you start to see, okay, so this is why you're invited into the room and kept in the room and ultimately signed, but it's, it's just, it's just finding that doorway in sometimes.

So yeah, for me. Mine is often hearing about customer, customer interactions, you know, which is, uh, you know, really helpful because ultimately we got to sell to those customers. So we've got to make sure that we're, we're, we're listening to what they have to say or why they buy from a brand in the first place.

So,

Jaymi Bauer: and salespeople, I mean, they know how to take a concept and put it into a few really compelling words. I mean, just like marketers, um, I think it's a, it's a mistake to not have salespeople. And at that level of, of brand development, for sure.

Jon Busby: Completely agree. It's um, I'm going to bring Vicky. I'm going to bring you back in here.

Like we've been talking about the, almost a very personal process, like which, can you think of any B2B brands that. That per, you know, bring a, a lit up when we think about them. Like, I'm trying to, I'm trying to think, I'm trying to think. Salesforce, I keep going back to Right. Let's take them off the table.

But Vicki, what, who, who's the most lit up B2B brand that we think shows that, shows that example?

Vicki Sleath: Gosh, um, I mean, I, on a personal level, um, I would probably lean towards HubSpot. Um, I think HubSpot is a brand that really. Stays true to itself. And if we sort of take that step back around how authentic stories are told from a truth and how that, um, attracts people to it, the, the authenticity, um, HubSpot's a great example.

So, um, they've had to innovate. To, to pick up, um, and sustain customer interest. Um, and even though they've expanded now into things like CRM and, uh, automation as well, they very much stayed true to their, um, core philosophy of helping businesses to grow through customer centric strategies. So I would probably say HubSpot.

Jon Busby: But what you've highlighted there is someone that's truly authentic and really simple, right? It's just around helping companies grow. Um, I, I, Jamie, I don't know about you, but I have this problem with value propositions that have the word and in too many times. Um, I think you're just trying to do too much.

Like you haven't spent the time really trying to understand where you're authentic and where, where you're simple, which would, would you agree? Like, can you, do you think there's a formula for creating? That kind of simple message that's truly authentic.

Jaymi Bauer: I, I totally agree with you. The end product being as few words as possible, um, strangely the beginning product for my value prop exercise is the most atrociously long run on sentence possible.

And we sculpt, we sculpt from there, but there are just four components that I think make up a value prop statement. And that begins with, why are you even doing this? Why? Why? And, and a lot of times it's just canned. Everyone's like, I want to make humanity better. Or I want to, you know, help companies make a gazillion dollars, but like we have to get into the why this, this is so important and then how.

Are you going to do that? You're going to create a data management platform, but then with what? Um, I guess data intelligence and integration and dah, dah, dah, dah. Okay. Now for whom they really specific. So the why, how, what, who is the value prop stack value prop stack. So lots of, and way too many words.

And then, you know, it consolidates down into something. I mean, you guys help make it so pithy, smart, simplicity. Um, but yes, the, the end can't have too many, but those four components, in my opinion are, you know, so important. I, my, my big issue though, is still like take any B2B company, walk them through those four questions, even like HubSpot, Salesforce, you know, I, I respect those companies a lot and how are they not going to sound like everybody else?

They're all customer centric, right? Like this is, this is the challenge that really, where is it? And being lit up is really just a clue for me. I'm not saying you need to go out there and everyone just needs to be like, Um, it's just my clue to where that is for you, where you are not going to sound like everyone else.

Jon Busby: I think, I think that's actually a great way, but it's good to know that some, you've got to start with a long story before you get to a short one. Um, cause I, I do think that we always try and wordsmith a bit too much at the start as you go through and write something like that, but having a formula for how you get the right component pieces and distill it down, um, is that, that's it.

Um, I just, yeah, I think that we have this natural tendency to want to try and include so much like, and we do this and we help customers with this and, and it's just, it, it, it just makes everything a bit more confusing. Um, so.

Jaymi Bauer: They just become a big soup of everything. It's like, Oh, I wanted a meal, but yes, I got a whole bunch of ingredients in a soup.

Jon Busby: What a great, what a great analogy as well. Um, so as we, as we kind of start to close out and look to the future of B2B marketing, like what trends do you think will have the biggest impact? And how do you think brands can prepare for them? And I think you're uniquely placed here, Jamie, because you've, you've transcended.

Both B2C and B2B. Um, and we often say B2B follows B2C. But I think we've disproven that today with some of our discussions around, you know, is it emotional, um, uh, and and so on. So, you know, what are the, some of the trends that you can see coming down the, the pipeline that we need to be mindful of in B2B?

Jaymi Bauer: Um, I. We're, Manaz said this earlier, you can lose your job if you don't make a good decision in B2B, but you seldom lose your job if you don't make a good decision B2C. And so the stakes are really high. Trust is more important in B2B than anything, and in my opinion, authenticity builds trust.

Authenticity determines how you show up. All the time, everywhere, which is brand, right? Brand is not just a logo or a name. It's how you show up everywhere all the time. And for B2B brands to have a real understanding of who they are so that they can show up consistently, they don't have to remember it.

They don't need those big, you know, letters on the walls of those companies that have great value statements that are just not true vision statements that are just. Whatever somebody made them up and they sound good. No true and everyone will know it because it's actually honestly how we do things Then you know The brand is just the last thing that meets the customer.

It's the product. It's the people who make the product. It's the investors. It's every human that's involved in making this thing that people eventually buy. Are they aligned and doing something great? That's talk about simple. So Yeah, I think authenticity and truth in B to B is absolutely paramount, and you have to get into the human to be able to do that if you're going to do it easily.

Um, and then, of course, just because of how powerful, you know, AI really is, it's amazing. I love it. We really need leaders who are embodying this. Those are the leaders who are going to be able to hire the right people and people will follow them and Be able to simplify what this company is all about be able to go and actually create, you know shareholder value Um, and so I think every company but yes Definitely b2b is we're going to need leaders who are who are grounded in this true story more than ever by far And and finally, you know, what is the?

Generative AI feeding on anyway. We know it's data, but, but it's more than that. Like I, I almost started my Ted talk with, we have an energy crisis right now. Um, and it's not the type of that we think of. It's human. We have a human energy crisis coming. And at the end of the day, you know, we'll see how this goes.

If we lose too much humanity in everything we do, I think we will swing back. It's okay. It's just going to be maybe a little bit painful, but to stay very human right now. Uh, in all of our marketing, especially B2B, as we sit here and talk about that every company can begin to sound the same, you gotta get human.

I want

Jon Busby: to hand over to Minaz and Vicky, like future, how do, how do those future trends sound and what have we got to add to it from our side?

Minaz Tejani: Um, so I think, yeah, I totally agree with all the things that Jamie's talks about there. You know, they're kind of the, the revert, the, the. I suppose reconsideration of the human element is going to be more important than ever before.

I think trust in brands is always been there, but it's now more important than ever before. The one area I would say is probably slightly more on the kind of, um, I would say tactical level, but, but at a strategic level for B2B campaigns is the, uh, real coming together of brand and demand. And, you know, we're starting to see so many clients and so many brands really embrace that properly.

And starting to look at, we don't have a brand campaign on the left hand side, and then a demand gen campaign on the right, it's now looking at as one connected journey. And there's some really good, interesting brands that have embraced that and are doing it in their workday. Sage, these are all companies that are very, very brand led, but you see the multiplier effect it has on their demand gen.

And I think those two coming together, we all love a connected story. And I think more than ever, the top story that I hear needs to continue right the way down to purchase and beyond, you know, I think to your point, Jamie, they're about, um, everyone needs to embody the brand story and the brand value. You know, they often talk about that, you know, a brand isn't just, you know, a logo and a name and a tagline.

It's when you walk into a bank and the power, how the teller or the customer service representative treats you. What's the human interaction that you have is branding that transcend every single part of the business. So it's absolutely key. So yeah, back to the point. Uh, I think the brand and the, the, the sort of, you know, the collaboration at Brandon are really coming together.

I'm excited to see where that can go. Um, some of the work we're doing in ABM, this is why, you know, fascinates me. Uh, is that brand in ABM is almost intrinsic. It's part and parcel of it. You know, you wouldn't. You wouldn't go straight to demand. It's always a credibility, a trust building exercise in part of that process.

It's, it's just, it's never not on the table. So it really excites me. And I think, how can we make that thinking go across all B2B marketing from wide scale lead generation all the way down to one to one ABM programs, targeting. The top CIOs in the 10 companies, you know, it's the same, same sort of thinking, but because we're all humans, we're all reacting the same way.

So, yeah, that's kind of my big one for 2026. And

Jon Busby: how we bring the authenticity to it, Vicky, over to you for how, how do we connect all those threads together? Not, not just a tiny, tiny order here, just to try and try and bring those future trends to a connection point.

Vicki Sleath: Of course. Um, and actually, I think I, I think I have one, which is, you know, leaning into both that kind of human side of things, but also the connection.

And for me, for the year ahead or years ahead, it's already happening to an extent, but certainly more so as we move forward is this importance around community, um, community led growth, social selling, um, so the likes of LinkedIn, industry forums, um, brand led communities. These things are going to be so critical for both engagement and influence moving forward.

And I think. If anything, this conversation comes back continually to sort of authenticity and trust, and we are more likely to trust one another. So I think the power, the power distribution is actually possibly going to be handed even more so to those communities than ever before. And that's certainly something worth, um, investing thought in, in terms of how best to manage and empower that as well.

Jon Busby: And I'd say that embodies authenticity and energy so well as well. Like, you know, the community element of it is a, is a great summary there, um, Vicky. So we have some really good ending points there. And I'm going to come back to Jamie, your point around the energy crisis. Um, I actually had a, uh, my, one of my first ever mentors said to me, you need to manage one of the most important things you can do is understand what gives you energy and what takes it away.

Um, and I think we need to do that for our own brands as well. And being off the, there's nothing that takes my energy away than an unauthentic brand that isn't able to speak to its community, community effectively, uh, that isn't able to build its brand effectively from what you've said there Minaz as well.

Um, and so it's, if I'm to tie some of these points together, you've got to start with an authentic story that helps to build the energy and build your community. So Jamie, it's been a real pleasure having you on the Tech Marketing Podcast today. Thank you very much for joining us.

Jaymi Bauer: Thank you.

Jon Busby: I believe you're putting together a book on this topic.

Is that right?

Jaymi Bauer: Yes. Yes. Yeah, about resonance design.

Jon Busby: So when's, when's it due out and when, um, you know, when is it, when do we need to get you back on the podcast to talk about it?

Jaymi Bauer: Oh gosh. I think it's, it's, uh, it's in the proposal phase right now, so it probably won't be out for a good six to 12 months, but when it is, I will be sending you guys a copy.

And we'd love to come back and talk about it. I've already started to build your brands, by the way. Uh, we'll do that off, you know, line. I have, I have thoughts for each of you, personal brands that turn into, you know, just differentiating each of you does, you know, what you do really, really well, but there's something special.

So.

Jon Busby: Can't wait for a follow up. Let's do it. When that was sent me, I was doing the books out and see, see if those brands have been built. So, you know, Jamie, it's been a pleasure to have you on the tech marketing podcast today.