130 | Building brands with soul: The CMO playbook

Harry Radcliffe: Hello, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another episode of the Tech Marketing Podcast. This episode, we will be joined by Sue Ting, who has written a brilliant book called Building Brands with Soul, a CMO Playbook. We're going to be talking about that today. It is out, so you can order it right now. At any time in the podcast, you think, damn, this sounds like a good book.

Hop online, it is called Building Brands with Soul, a CMO Playbook. Sue, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast. John, what did you think of my introduction?

Jon Busby: Yeah, that was a great intro, but also it's suiting. This is the second time we've had you on the podcast. In fact, you left a lasting impression with me last time being Yeah, it has.

It's something I've reflected on quite a bit about how, um, how a traditional, you know, some of our traditional values is marketing haven't really changed. And I'm just so pleased that you're now sharing a lot of that with, with the world. So, um, welcome back to the podcast.

Siew Ting Foo: Thank you. Uh, I'm, I'm glad that I left a lasting and positive impression on you.

So it looks like it's

going to be another interesting one today.

Jon Busby: You know, so tell us kind of what, you know, last time we caught up, you were, you were at HP, we were talking about how, you know, essentially a lot of the, the, the metrics that we measure ourselves. Um, I think we described you as the traditional brand Buddha.

Uh, I think with some of the wording we, we, we used last time, um, but what's changed since we last caught up?

Siew Ting Foo: Well, I have spent a lot of time actually, um, taking a break, uh, you know, really doing a lot of self reflection on myself and writing a book. Um, and this whole idea of writing a book purely come from the perspective that I want to pay back to the community.

I want to do my part on inspiring the next generation of marketing leaders. And then it's kind of like, you know, I wish 10 years ago when I was not a CMO and expiring to the CMO that there is actually a playbook that I can really look at, um, that really guide me along this journey. So I decided to write a book and, and this book is really a summary and a collection of, you know, my own journey.

Of, um, um, ascending towards CMO role, it talks a lot about a topic that I'm absolutely passionate about, which is building brands with soul, um, but also leading with, uh, soul.

Jon Busby: So what does it, what does it really mean? You know, you, you said building brands with souls and that you're incredibly passionate about what is building a brand with soul mean?

Siew Ting Foo: It's a fantastic question and, and, and, and, and I think I get, I get asked. this quite often. And, you know, I always play back to people and ask them, so what's interpretation of soul? So, so why don't I, why don't I start with that before I give you the answer? So John, what do you think about the word soul?

What does it mean?

Jon Busby: Oh, that's, I mean, okay, you've reflected it straight back on me. Um, Harry, you always going to have something meaningful here. So I'm also going to just give you a warning. It's coming over to you straight after me, by the way, uh, because I'm expecting something like incredibly insightful here.

Um, and deep. What does soul mean? For me, it's, it's something humanizing isn't quite the right word, but it's, it's some, it's, it's non analytical. It's, it's emotional. It's kind of a combination of emotion of, of, of our human feelings, if you will. But it's certainly not kind of your analytical data driven.

Type type approach that we talked so much about today like Dave, if I was to try and describe what soul meant, it would, it would be that it would be a feeling, um,

Harry Radcliffe: some kind of intangible value that, uh, make something beyond what it is that you see immediately, I suppose.

Siew Ting Foo: Yeah, I think both of you answered that part of the answer, um, um, which is, you know, a brand with soul.

It's something intangible, uh, in that perspective. I mean, we all connect with brands, not on a functional level. I mean, we really connect with brands on the emotional level. Um, and a lot of brands that are really iconic and it has great values and many of them I've, I've worked for and work with, um, they don't emerge from a company strategy or execution.

They actually emerge from. The people that worked on the brand,

um,

Siew Ting Foo: the employees that work on the brand and also the leaders, um, that worked on the brand by, you know, doing the right thing, uh, for the business and for the brand and really to, you know, impact, um, the society and humanity in a, in a, in a meaningful way.

So for me, a brand and business with soul really lies back to that and you, you, you can feel it, right? If a brand and a business is with soul, you almost can feel it, smell it, you know, you're, you're, you're, it's, you can, you can feel that intangible and then that spirit of it. Um, in this book. Go ahead Jeremy.

So

Harry Radcliffe: what are some soulful brands that spring to mind? Same thing. I think c b2b. Oh,

Siew Ting Foo: I'll come to that. I'll come to that. Okay. Okay. But, but, but, but the book actually talks about my own journey of building brands soul, but also leading with soul. Mm-Hmm. . Um, and the book cover, trying to get a copy of the book now.

It actually has this ripple.

Oh,

Siew Ting Foo: and this ripple sums up my own journey of leading and building brands with soul because it starts from self mastery to team, uh, development and leadership and then to brand and then business impact. So the book encompasses, um, that.

Jon Busby: I want to, I want to highlight that ripple because I've noticed it in some of the language that, that you, you know, we were talking about beforehand suiting, which is, and I, and this was just so powerful for me.

You mentioned, I'm going to read directly from your synopsis, but I just want to show I thought this was so, so brilliantly and eloquently written, but a brand with soul not only enhances the bottom line and growth, but also provides a rippling positive impact that echoes through the lives of customers, employees in society at large.

I mean, wow. Wow. Like, you're, you're not wrong. Um, and like, I've been thinking about Harry's question there. There are so many B2B brands that do that. And so many that I think are missing it. Um, so yeah, I think that just that, that, that really left an impression with me, this concept of, of you're leaving a legacy almost, isn't it?

Um,

Siew Ting Foo: Well, I, I had, I just, I mean, I had amazing opportunities to grow up with many iconic brands and many of them are brands of soul. But I've also witnessed. Occasion when the brand was so actually lost its soul in that perspective mine But my pure objective of writing this book is not only to inspire the next generation of marketing leader But also to ignite a conversation about leadership with soul.

So it's almost like trying to light up the fire of every ripple

Siew Ting Foo: in every one

Siew Ting Foo: of you. And so that, you know, many, many reports come out to, you know, really galvanize a community of, um, and the conversation around leadership with soul.

Harry Radcliffe: We're lacking leadership with soul there in the

Jon Busby: UK. Took it straight there.

Didn't you, Harry? Sorry. That, that took me by surprise. Yeah, I want to know what

Harry Radcliffe: the brands were sold off. You tease me, Sue.

Siew Ting Foo: So, so I, I worked for, well, I literally counted how many brands I've worked with, uh, over my career of two decades in marketing. I think I'm essentially what was 13 global brands, but I want to say that there's a brand that you guys will be very familiar with, um, that is absolutely amazing brand and so, um, and I enjoyed.

My time working on it. It's Johnny Walker.

Harry Radcliffe: Yeah, that is a brand with soul.

Siew Ting Foo: Yeah, I mean that that is a brand with soul because for me it takes five criteria on my own definition of what the brand is It's it's anchored on a meaningful purpose and then its purpose actually stay relevant with time Changing, uh, according to the macro environment, I keep reinventing.

And then the third thing is it, it, it, you know, it has a meaningful impact on people's life. Connect with you on emotional level. It has amazing campaigns, uh, itself. And it's, it comes up through the passion of the people that work on the brand, right? When you walk into DRGO, everyone loves. Walker from the leaders to the factory workers to the master blenders that you see in Scotland at the same time.

It's absolutely consistent. You smell it. You feel it. You know, the striding man. I can't, you know, the bottle, you know, the PT with it's absolutely consistent. You can feel it. So, so, so that's a great definition of um,

Jon Busby: It's quarter past eight here, and I'm Thursday now for whiskey. Uh, that's pretty, that's a bad day.

That's a bad sign for the podcasts every day. That's a bad sign. I was gonna say

Harry Radcliffe: that with, um, Johnny Walker. One thing that sticks to me is the voice actors that they use. You could definitely, I could choose the voice actor. You could go. That is the wrong voice actor. And this reminds me of a podcast I did solo a while ago.

Brands with soul, I was talking about music as, as part of branding. So Intel has that, you know, that type of thing. And then the furthest reach of that, the furthest North star of that is when you can hear something and that sounds like the brand, as opposed to, you know, a brand having an original sound.

So like James Bond, if a song comes out and you hear it on the radio, you can go, that'd be a great James Bond song. Something like that. Yeah. But you know, there's lots of other brands you can go, but Johnny Walker actually, you could say, Hey, this would be good on a Johnny Walker advert. Yeah, if you hear that.

So that's a, that's how I like it. If, if, if you, if it can have music attached to it, which is one of the most soulful mediums, then I think that's a good way to begin it.

Jon Busby: One thing you mentioned a moment ago though, so Ting, was that this, this concept that it's the, the leaders bring a lot of the soul. Um, and within it with a brand, an established brand like Johnny Walker, that's been around for, you're probably going to tell me now, like, I'm going to say it's certainly over 50 years.

Yeah, a long, long time. Um, like how, how do you, how does it still retain the soul during that time period? And how do leaders make sure they're, um. I'm going to say that good advocates for it as they as they take charge of a such an established brand.

Siew Ting Foo: I think managing and leading a global brand is not easy to be really frank.

Um, and especially if it's a brand that is of great value to the business. A lot of people want to have a say in the brand. There's lots of opinions, but um, I would say that I have, I mean, not none of the brands that work on or not, or neither Johnny Walker. Um, but I've also seen brands and, and one of the most iconic brand, which is I think quite talked about now over the last few months, um, is a brand that is amazing with soul, but it lost his pluck a little bit, lost his soul.

You guess what that brand is?

Jon Busby: I'm going to probably say Nike. Yeah, like actually we use this as Uh, we, cause I use it, it's a strange thing, right? Actually, and I'm going to give credit to one of my team here. Cause, cause he actually wrote the talking points for me. Um, but it's, uh, we use it as a case study on, at an event on data about how not to be data driven.

Um, and why it's important because I think one of the key problems we've got today isn't that we've got we haven't got the right data is that we don't have the right people that can tell the right stories with it that can understand it correctly, which comes down to your point of soul. Um, like, from your perspective, like, and for Harry's benefit and all of our listeners benefit, they haven't heard the case study.

Like, what happened with Nike suiting?

Siew Ting Foo: I think four things that they did differently. Um, they. They lost what it really stands for, because Nike is about performance, it's about sports. So they almost lost its strong, unique purpose and unique differentiation and they went generic. So they start classifying it into categories like women's and children's and, um, and everything.

And there's the second, you know, critical success factor was that the products matter. Yeah. Yeah. Products. We buy Nike purely because of its product innovation and it has great performing products which goes back to its positioning about all about sports performance. But they start investing in innovation and then there's lots of other players that came in with better products.

And then the third thing was they went too much, um, short term,

um,

Siew Ting Foo: you know, the, the entire just counting on direct to consumer channels versus seeing that as an, as a platform as a stage and that people actually buy omni channel, I mean, the whole direct consumer thing happened in COVID and COVID was purely because it was contextual.

Issue, but they lost that and they use that to project into the future because um, and I think that pisses off lots of Their channel partners, uh itself and then last but not least perhaps they lost a bit of internal belief and internal challenge Um, I mean one of the great example is their recent campaign at olympics Um, for me, I, I didn't thought it was pretty polarizing.

I didn't quite thought that that was really a Nike ad, right? Because you, you, you know, one of, I mean, brands that has, besides Johnny Walker and Guinness, I mean, Nike has the, the best ad ever. But when I saw that ad I was like, Hey, that's not recognizable as a, as a Nike act. So, so I think those were the few things that they, they, they, they, they make mistake as a result, the valuation.

I was reading an article today. Um. 60 percent drop in valuation.

Jon Busby: Yeah. I mean, you're talking like a top 10 brand here, probably a top five brand with Nike, um, like Lou losing their, losing their brand valuation. Like that is just, I mean, they found the errors of their ways, but one thing. You've worked on both the B2C side and the B2B side.

So you're one of the few marketeers and CMOs that have made that jump. Uh, but it makes me just the one comment you made about they thought too short term, you know, I think every B2B marketeer should be looking at what's happened with Nike or Nike, depending on how you pronounce it. Um, uh, and. And be looking at that saying as a, as a red flag for we've been, we've been focusing on demand gen and driving the importance of leads now in B2B for a long time.

And we're starting to see that Wayne, but because. B2C businesses, I'm going to say it's like fairly controversial, the sales cycles are shorter, you know, essentially they're like, they're like the fruit fly to, to, to us, right? They're the, they're the, we can, we can see changes faster. We can see evolution faster with, with a B2C brand like, like Nike.

And so we should be looking at that and going and learning from it and applying it to our businesses as quickly as we can. I think, um. But great, great example. Like, what, do you have any examples of B2B brands that you think have the most soul? Because I've got one in my head, but it's one I know what that one is.

He's gonna say Splunk. I'm gonna jump in there before he does. Yeah, go ahead, Harry. Go, yeah, go ahead, Harry. Splunk is, I will say, yeah, I will give you that one, but it wasn't the one I was thinking of. He's going to say Salesforce. Yeah, it's going to be Salesforce.

Siew Ting Foo: Yeah.

Jon Busby: Yeah.

Siew Ting Foo: I'm going to say Salesforce.

Jon Busby: Um, cause just, just partly cause your comment, um, around leaders.

Like I just think the brand embodies itself through, you know, through all the leaders at Salesforce. They do such an exceptional job of doing that. And also making sure they provide the ripple effects. Like I think they are the, the, the gold standard of, um, of. How you do that at scale. So I mean, anyway, that brings us onto like a really important point here, I think, which is, is it for such an intangible item like brand, like how do you make sure that.

It creates that lasting value for business and on the bottom line, like how do you blend the, how do you create turn sold, which is something that is going to be incredibly difficult to talk to your board about into something that's, that's valuable to the company.

Siew Ting Foo: I think you still can't run away from data.

And I still go back to the conversation that we had the last time, which is. Goes back to the craft of marketing is still an art and science. Um, but it's, but it's knowing when you actually use the science and you use the data to tell your story and knowing. When you make decisions that is, um, not a hundred percent proven on data.

Um, at the

Siew Ting Foo: end of the day, there's lots of methodologies that can prove, um, the brand impact and the brand, uh, impact on valuation. And I would always use something that, you know, people in the industry has taught me, which is you link the brand value to ability to drive sustainable pricing power. So, so for me, brand is not something that you just go in and say, you need three years to build or, you know, you don't, you have to link back to something very substantial, which is the brand value or your ability to keep raising price or you keep the price at a certain level.

So for me, that is where the data comes in, especially when you sell within the board and the leaders. That is extremely important on leading brand, but then when you, when you talk about the art, the art of galvanizing everybody to us, you know, the entire conviction on what the brand stand for and the passion and the narrative and the insight out, that's not what data can help you data.

Data helps you, but that is more the conviction of the leaders. And that is where what I meant the ripple effect comes into play, right? So, so it comes from yourself, your own conviction, and how you trust your own conviction all the way down to your team. And then how the team helps galvanizes the entire organization together is going to be really critical.

Jon Busby: I mean, that's, that's a difficult task on its own. Galvanizing an organization, like what kind of, what tips, this book is all around providing tips to aspiring marketers, very similar to this podcast actually. It's, it's, um, but what tips can you give someone to how, how they might galvanize someone around a vision or a, or a brand?

Siew Ting Foo: I think, um, I'm, I'm not perfect, I'm actually still learning, so some of the tips that I have will be more like what I've learned and practiced and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and failed. Um, it's It's, uh, it's what I would use my own version of 5Cs. So it's not a diamond, it's 5 carat of 5Cs. Not, not in Singapore we have our 5Cs.

Um, it's my own version of 5Cs, which is, um, one is, um, conviction. Having the conviction, um, and to really sell a bold vision. Second is really courage. Um, you know, having the ability to dream the impossible and have courage around that. Um, so for me, that has helped me a lot as creativity, especially even how creative you are in selling a narrative.

It's actually absolutely critical, especially when it comes to, uh, uh, uh, leadership. And then the, the, the, the fourth piece it's, it's, it's really around community. So I'm a firm believer in community. Um, I don't believe in. Hierarchy. I believe there is a top leadership level on stakeholder management that CMO needs to do, but then in order to translate that community, um, and speed to market and speech impact and using the team's community power becomes absolutely important and also defining what community beyond marketing, uh, beyond the realm of marketing, uh, is extremely, uh, important.

And then the last piece is, You know, really around commitment. So when you set your mind on something, you go and. Make it happen.

Harry Radcliffe: Those are really good C's. Some of the finest C's. Yeah, I won't bore

Siew Ting Foo: you with Singapore C's. They're too boring.

Harry Radcliffe: What are the, what are they around though? What are they, what are they?

Material,

Siew Ting Foo: material things like car, credit card, condo. I prefer

Harry Radcliffe: what the other two are. Why, why

Jon Busby: are there Singapore, why does Singapore have C's compared to, I knew the diamond C's, like you're cut. It's about dollar bills

Siew Ting Foo: baby. Yeah, it's just, it's just, you know, what you define success, you know, many years ago on.

What success looks like and be quite the five C's. Yeah,

Jon Busby: but but I would say I think the biggest piece that stood out for me and it's the one you spent the most time on as well. So I think it might be the biggest for you as well. Suiting is, is the, um, is that community element? Uh, and I'm, you know, we're always the same, same here at organizations and how I try and lead my teams is, is there's no such thing as hierarchy.

Like, you know, it's that Toyota mentality of if anyone can pull the red cord and stop the production line or raise their hand and make a point and it be just as valid, whether you're the most senior person in the room or the most, you've only been here. Two days and you're the most junior. So I completely, completely agree, completely agree with what you're saying there that that I think that community element is is key to get bringing everyone along.

Like, how do you But, you know, everyone, all of us in our careers have gone through and tried to launch a new brand. Doing it by community and by committee, another C, um, is, can be quite, really quite time consuming. Like, how do you get through, how do you get through that and get everyone kind of aligned in the same direction?

I'll jump

Harry Radcliffe: on the back of that as well, because as committee, when you talk about community, is that internal? or external because I assumed external, but actually now John's making more sense by saying internal, but the best brands will have that external community. These evangelists that do it for them, but that's kind of a product of having a brilliant brand as opposed to a way to create one.

Siew Ting Foo: You, I, I would say my, my

Siew Ting Foo: philosophy is that's internal first. Because if your internal employees cannot be your advocate, then things will fall through, right? Because, you know, now with social media, people can find out whether, you know, the company employees are really passionate about the brand. So that's where a lot of I've seen use case whereby.

Because there wasn't enough internal rally cry that brands actually, um, got into crisis. So I think it starts with internal,

but

Siew Ting Foo: then when the brand, but then you also need to utilize external community, um, to, to really drive that. And especially now with social media, a lot of the younger brands or brands targeted at youth.

Um, you know, actually leaves in community and leaves in social media, right? Um, you know, just look at how my little girl, she's 11, how she consumes brands. It's all through community and all through social media. So. I think community externally is absolutely important as part of your strategy of marketing.

But, um, I, I, I, I think it has to start from internal first and then it emanates externally.

Jon Busby: Forgetting that alignment internally can be such a challenge. Like, especially if you are doing it as a community, like, have you, have you got any tips on how you move through that quickly? How you define a brand or proposition without, without it feeling like a decision by committee?

Siew Ting Foo: Yeah, I think, I, I think in the book, um, there is actually a chapter of how I talk a little bit about, um, how I, Bring the community together, um, and it goes, and I have a framework around that, right? It goes back to, you know, I always practice a framework whereby align my own purpose, the team's purpose, each one of their purpose, and we go through a journey of, you know, using that to align to the company and the brand's purpose.

And then drawing that together to create a team goal or team manifesto and what we want to known for. So I think that process up front in terms of leading any teams change and brand launches and everything is absolutely critical because Um, you can have the best strategy, but if it's top down, you're not winning the hearts and minds of the people who are working on it, it will fall flat.

So, yeah. So I have, I use that framework so far, uh, in a lot of, um, the, the, the brand launches that I've been in or transformation journey and, and, and somehow it seems to work.

Jon Busby: I, I couldn't agree more. Like I, I think there's a lot that. You know, just as you're talking through your approach and your book, you mentioned this term purpose earlier and being a purposeful CMO.

And just then you, you know, you mentioned about how you need to bring the team together and understand kind of each other's and I reading slightly between the lines there, um, of your book, if you will, like I see that as, as understanding each other's values. Um, so it's, it's right back to kind of that purpose and value driven management, you know, exactly the same way that kind of, and I think of built to last, um, if any, if you remember that, remember that book, like about how that you have to have that purpose that exists for the entire history of the company and never changes, um, and make sure that everyone's values are aligned to that.

So I think it's just showing that it's, it's even more important. Um, but also, I've had this conversation with a few other podcast guests recently. Um, you know, I think you've got to get to know the people in your team. Um, you know, you've got to, we try and spend the first 5 10 minutes of every meeting actually not talking about work.

So that we know kind of where we live and, uh, what the weather's doing. And what we, and it sounds kind of a little bit of. A little bit unproductive, but I think as a leader, if you're not doing that, you can't align people's values and you can't put it in their, in their terms. Um, I think that's, I think it's incredibly important.

Did you have that kind of view of the firm, like that purpose view of the firm when you were going through and thinking about your own frameworks? Sorry, the question is, so sorry, it was a bit of a long winded question, but did you have that that view of purpose and values and vision almost as you were thinking about your approach to being a CMO?

Siew Ting Foo: Oh, it's a big part of my leadership strategy and my leadership value. So for me, whenever I go into a new role. Even if I'm in the same organization, but it's a different team. I always declare my and letting people know who me beyond the transactional side of things. It's, you know, knowing me as a human being and who I am, what makes me takes, what does it make me take?

What's my purpose? So I always spend time letting people understand that, um, uh, first and also it's reciprocal, right? So in the conversation, I want to know individuals on. Who they are, what their values, um, and through the conversation, I kind of know what their strengths are and what their potential is.

And I tend to, um, fit them into roles that brings out their potential. It might be uncomfortable for them, but actually it helps to stretch them. I mean, that's something that I always do in all the roles that I go to.

Jon Busby: I actually couldn't, couldn't agree more really to that. I think we, you have to, and I came across this, this stat recently.

I think you have to be 7 percent uncomfortable to keep pushing yourself. Um, that's the, that's where you want to, you want to be, you want to, whether that's kind of in your exercise routine or you're getting faster running, um, or whether that's in your, in your job, it 7 percent more difficult to be just difficult enough to stretch you.

Um. Talking now, taking this coming back to kind of Harry, your question here, cause we talked around internal community, but we also mentioned kind of external community. How, you know, how can a brand create more significant societal impact? Like what are your frameworks for measuring that? And, and how do you bring that into being a purposeful CMO?

Siew Ting Foo: I think it goes back to why the brand exists and what the brand is. Exist to do and what what it wants in impact on, you know, people's life and each brand is different depending on the strategy of the company I mean again, I use I use I use Johnny Walker and I use Guinness both of them are great brands and Johnny Walker's purpose is very consistent.

It didn't change for 200 years. It's about inspiring, inspiring people's progress.

Jon Busby: Okay. Okay.

Siew Ting Foo: That's why the keep walking line. That's why, you know, it's whiskey. Um, it didn't change. It just stayed relevant. Um, um, you know, and, and it's not only just about producing great whiskey and people enjoying the whiskey, um, you know, true is marketing.

It also. You know, bring about a lot of different societal causes on really driving that impact So it goes back to the brand purpose and the brand positioning and what the brand really wants to stand for And I think underneath that has to go back to you know, it has to be anchored on the Universal human truth that it's has enough tension and that travels across continents, um, um, and different culture and different, different culture.

Harry Radcliffe: I'm talking like with Apple, you get the people who are Apple people, you know, you're just never going to get them on Android and Apple knows that and they'll actually, they'll push it as well. Like when you have. When you receive a text from Android and stuff like that, they make it seem clunkier than it is.

Like their emojis are all wrong. And when you try to link stuff, they, those green texts that you get from the Android people, they make them unpleasant because they want you to see them as other, and you don't want to go over. Leave this Apple community where you get all the cool texts. And go over to the, to the Android community.

So it's stuff like that. You can have benefits and, and costs to keep a brand close knit. Um, I don't know if, if alcohol has the same kind of a kind of effect on that, but I suppose, uh, trying to think of what other brands may

Jon Busby: do. I think for me, actually, Harry, it's the, the, the bit that stands out most is that we're having worked on many brands and having, you know, as part of a.

B2B marketing agency, we've created constant, you know, creative concepts. We've gone back and seen briefs. We've been trained on, on big brands. It's that many brands just are missing that purpose. Like haven't, haven't truly defined like why they exist. And cause I, you know, I think there were so many. So many examples where they, they just try and redefine themselves every few years or every, every change of leadership and what that ends up doing is just creating a very fragmented experience or very disjointed experience.

Sue Tingle, from your side, can you, you've used Johnny Walker as a great example, like how did they embody that? That purpose in some of its marketing that can you can you provide an example of where where that came to life?

Siew Ting Foo: Well, I I I I I think one of the one of the

Siew Ting Foo: pitfalls of marketers is sometimes you You get, you get bored with your own work, but the consumers get bored with it and then they keep, um, changing, you know, the campaigns behind it, or they change the positioning and, and kind of get really confused what that positioning is.

I mean, for me, the Johnny Walker brand, the positioning doesn't change for 200 years. It didn't change. The keep walking line didn't change for many, many years from this time of its, you know, conception. The striding man, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's really there. But what changes is how progress is being defined according to different culture.

Like progress in China is slightly different from progress in the Western world, right? So, so the communication and the cultural aspect of it becomes more relevant Not only just from a language standpoint, but also from the stories that are being told itself and and also the product liquid doesn't change it's always both PT but The innovation evolves.

So, you know, over the course of the last 10 This whole, you know, for example, in Asia, there was, and Western world, in the duty free, there was a big gifting, um, you know, need. There was people willing to pay more for customized pack, right? And then you start seeing in the duty free. You know, really great collaborations of, you know, customized packs with different brand partners.

And even in, in China that I was part of the journey, we actually created very, very high end, you know, uh, Johnny Walker products, but we customize it because that was just a need for the target audience. They're willing to pay more for that. So, so, so, I mean, in this example, you will see changes. And what doesn't change, um, you know, so, so, so I think it's a fine balance between for the brand leaders to, to really drive that.

Jon Busby: Yeah. Like let's, let's move on now to kind of the role of the CMO a little bit, uh, as well, cause I think let's bring that into, into, into, in your book, you talk about this concept of a da Vinci CMO. Um, Can you explain? Let's start. What is a DaVinci CMO? Like, what does that, what does that mean?

Siew Ting Foo: So first to qualify that, that didn't come from me.

Actually, that came from the program that I was part of, uh, three years ago. So I was part of, um, the top hundred global CMO of this year. You know, program, but called Institute for Real Growth. Um, and it was founded by, you know, two amazing guys. And in fact, one of them actually wrote the forward of my book, Frank.

Um, and, um, in that, you know, in that program, um, they did a piece of work. Uh, they partner with Spencer Stewart and they started around the world. Uh, you know, what makes a great CMO and they look at 10 skill set. Yeah. And also five attributes of what great CMO looks like, and they call it the Da Vinci CMO.

And within this framework, there's both the arts and science and, you know, aspects of, um, uh, a CMO. Um, maybe they call it Da Vinci purely because, you know, Leonardo Da Vinci is an amazing craftsman and he creates great, um, uh, masterpiece. So, so, so, so that is, that's the concept of the Da Vinci CMO in, uh, itself.

Yeah,

Jon Busby: this, this concept of art, science and humanism, isn't it? Uh, the book come together and I, yeah, I'm not going to pretend to know that I'm, I'm not going to pretend to be classically trained on the Renaissance period, uh, during, during that period of history. But, you know, I can certainly see just from, from my knowledge of just how he painted some of the, some of the biggest masterpieces, but also invented, uh, a lot of things.

So that, that's kind of what we want to bring together is that, that art science, but also most importantly, that humanism. Um, like how as a CMO, how should you try and integrate Like, what is the, where do you get started? I guess, um, with knowing which ones to dial up and dial down.

Siew Ting Foo: Don't, I don't think I have a perfect model around that.

But,

Siew Ting Foo: um, I, I think in the Da Vinci, um, you know, You know, framework. There was five traits which I thought articulate the role of a CMO really well and what great CMOs need to have. I'm still learning. And the five traits are, uh, one, you need to be a great collaborator. So that means you need to play the role in the c suite as an integrator and and a collaborator That's absolutely critical.

If you're not you you you won't succeed in this demo Um, the second piece is being a courageous and inspiring storyteller Marketeers used to be storyteller, but to do that with conviction, I mean, some of the great CMOs globally well known, they are amazing, courageous storyteller and they have so much conviction.

The third piece is, you know, really driven from this perspective of this notion, they call it the servant leadership. Which I'm a big believer of servant leadership. I talk a lot about it in my book. And then the fourth piece, which is around, um, speed and impact success, especially in the current world.

Now you need to know when you use signs. And when you make decisions, when you don't, don't, don't, don't overanalyze and, you know, because things move very quickly, the speed and impact is so critical, especially with technology. And then the last piece is, is, is, is, is really, what is the last piece? I forgot what the last piece is.

Agility.

Jon Busby: Yep. Yeah.

Siew Ting Foo: Which is, we know is absolutely important, especially with the way technology is coming, um, fast and furious.

Jon Busby: There's so much there that I want to, I want to dive into, which we're not going to have time to do the whole thing, but you mentioned like difference between being a storyteller and a courageous storyteller, storytelling story with conviction, like what is, what, what is it?

A courageous storyteller,

Siew Ting Foo: courageous, well, courageous storytellers is you really believe in the brand and you believe in doing the brand, not because of the marketing campaign you're creating, but using the brand to galvanize the entire organization through transformation. And I did that many times in my, my, my, my career, because I believe that a brand.

Um, with purpose can actually drive transformation. Um, um, so elevating your speech is very important. The other piece which I learned through trials and error is don't underestimate the importance of storytelling, especially during transformation journey. How do you create a simple story? Don't scare the shit out of a lot of people, but inspire people, but yet make it so simple that people are not afraid.

As humans, we are creatures that don't like change. So how, how encouraging your, your, your, your story is and how people want to jump onto the bus. Um,

Siew Ting Foo: Mm-Hmm. You know, and

Siew Ting Foo: how you make it simple for people is it, it, it it is, it's and motivating for people. It's so pretty.

Jon Busby: Have, have you, have you got any examples of where you did that?

Because I think that's, you, you know, actually having spoken from someone that's taking a business through a transformational journey at the moment, that's one of the key things that, that we've focused on. Yeah. I have a very different way of articulating it, but have you, what, what's an example of where you've taken.

Brand on the transmission.

Siew Ting Foo: Well, actually more from a team from a transformation will be, you know, I think brands as many examples, but a team on transformation that you storytelling to really create that is I like to bite size things. And I like to use simple stuff that means something, but yet people can create a compelling platform for people to change.

So, so in in my second stint back as the Asia pack CMO in HP, and I think that was a moment that Maybe we, we caught up during that or I, I can't remember. Um, I, I had to create a compelling vision of, uh, what the marketing organization really stands for, and that was really stuck into Covid period. Um, and the people really needed to feel their value a little bit.

So we, we came together as a team and I, it wasn't purely my effort. I, I, I brought the team together and we, we brainstormed and we did workshops and everything, and we create this. What we call that the asia pack marketing team is all about magic is all about creating magic And each one of the word magic means something.

So M stands for mastery of brand. A stands for agility. G stands for growth and growth mindset. I stands for integration. So marketing can't be doing things on its own. In fact, we need to play an active role to integrate the four piece. And C stands for customer centricity. So those were the. And we are all about creating magic because we are your trusted business partners.

So that was the positioning that the marketing organization had within the corporation, but how we work with the other function. And that was so easy because it not only create a compelling narrative to my business partners and external functions. It also helped the team, um, elevate themselves. So, so, so they then become really clear that, okay, I need to do this five things in order to become more competent and to perform better.

And these are the skills that, that, and that in the journey, obviously I had, I had, I had training and. you know, whatever to help them with, you know, requiring new skill set. Um, so that's an example of creating a compelling narrative

Jon Busby: that that is, it is. Well, I might firstly, I might still that, um, that Cause I think that is magic.

Um, and also it's, it works so well in technology, technology, you know, technology when it, when it is true, innovation does look like magic, um, at the moment. So I think that's such a, can be used in so many different ways, but I think for many businesses now, and I'm going to try not to use the word that we've used on every podcast for the last two years.

Um, but you know, we're obviously going through a lot of change at the moment and a lot of transformation. I think that just is something that. That hits really, it's really important to make sure that you are a good storyteller that you can, you can tell a compelling journey of how you need to get how everyone in your team needs to get there.

But like you say, without without scaring them. So, you know, let's, let's kind of talk around. Let's kind of go back to basics for a second, also back to kind of what, what the book is there to talk about, which is as an aspiring CMO, like what advice would you, would you give them in order to start to cultivate this mindset?

Like, let's say they, you know, you've just, you've just been directed to your first VP position or, or maybe even just direct senior director position in a marketing organization. Like what, what advice would you give to that, that person wanting to aspire to be a CMO?

Siew Ting Foo: Well, in, in my book. There is a part, the third part, which actually is some out as Friday emails.

So those are the Friday emails that I write to my team, but, um, and I don't think I can remember all the 10 tips, but I actually wrote 10 stories of, you know, 10 leadership team tips that, you know, you should have a look at the book self. But then if I go back to the advice, Again, it goes back to my philosophy on the ripple effect.

So starting with yourself, knowing yourself, knowing your purpose, but Don't be, stay really curious and say, and constantly reinvent yourself. So, so for me, and get yourself uncomfortable, um, will be, will be where I think it has to start from there. And I think I'm a big believer of CMOs doing three things.

One, you need to dream big. You have, you need to have a bold vision. Two, you need, when you have a bold vision, um, you know, it's just not about talk, it's about making it happen. And then third is, one, you have the right people on the bus, and the right plans, and the right stakeholder, you execute with agility.

Um, um, so that's my three advice, right? Um, you know, uh, uh, uh, and obviously the skills and everything is on the Da Vinci, uh, CMO framework.

Jon Busby: I think that's really important to start with yourself. Like you've got to start and now we're coming, you know, this podcast will go out just before, well, you know, in December as we're coming up to the new year and one thing that I.

I do at the beginning of each new year is I spend a bit of time reflecting on what I've achieved and where I haven't achieved my goals. Um, and, and what I want to change. And probably over a bottle of Johnny Walker. Yeah. I am getting like a, I really, I'm getting a bit of a thirst on, um, that's probably not something to admit for nine o'clock on a, on a Tuesday morning.

But one thing I'm really interested here and as, as marketing, marketeers in marketing, especially at the moment where we're all talking about how you need to give value back to your audience. I think this is something you talk about in your book as well. Um, I, I do think we're, we're kind of having a. All of us are struggling to generate valuable content, um, and are relying a little bit too much on some of the newer fangled methods.

Again, I'm not going to try and use those two words, um, to, to, to generate it. Like, what advice would you give as a, also as an inspiring CMO to be able to, as you've create, been on this journey to create this book, like, how has that journey been? Like, how have you carved out the time to make it happen? Uh, and what advice would you have for anyone that wants to share?

Yeah, in creating their own content, because I think we, we, we're very good at talking, but we're not very good at creating like new, new elements like this that really helped to define new frameworks or shift our thinking. Um, so what advice would you have for someone to get started and write their own book?

Siew Ting Foo: Yeah.

Jon Busby: Yeah. Yeah. Don't do

Siew Ting Foo: it.

Jon Busby: Yeah.

Siew Ting Foo: I'm not quite sure, you know, everybody

Siew Ting Foo: should write their own book.

Jon Busby: Yeah. But like, has it been an easy journey for you to be on? Like what? Because I, I often, I don't think we're creating enough content enough and certainly enough customer valuable content. In all of our industries.

Um, and here you, here you are with a fantastic journey of not of what you've been on, but also some tips that you can, you're hopefully going to share to help CMOs. Like what, how did you get started on that journey to, to create this masterpiece?

Siew Ting Foo: To be frank. It was on my bucket list for a very long time and I kind of just, um, sat on it for a while.

Um, but it was triggered by my husband who kind of, who obviously planted my seed, planted the seed in my mind early this year. And then I realized I had a lot of content because I write Friday emails to my team without fail for a year. So I sat on a lot of content. And because of that. Once I set my mind on it, I just kind of create space for myself to, you know, write it.

And obviously in the journey, I had some help, right? I had a book coach. She helped me, she gave me an ideas around, around it. And I absolutely, totally empathize with, um, creatives now because I became a craftsman myself. And I find that the process of creating things is not so easy. It's, you kind of take two steps forward and then you take one step backward and then you get You get stuck in itself, but I would recommend anyone to do it because it was a fantastic journey of testing patients.

Testing my grid. It was also a fantastic journey of self reflection. Um, because I reflected on my own 25 years of career. What I've been very, very things that I'm very, very grateful about, but things I can do better. Um. Yeah. And then last but not least is a, is a, is a, is a bit, um, scary. I'm kind of like sharing my voice out there.

I'm putting myself out there because I wanted to share and inspire the next generation of marketing leaders. It is, it is a little bit of a, um, scary journey, but I think the response I'm getting now is actually quite encouraging.

Jon Busby: I, yeah, I mean, I can't wait. Well, we're talking, we're talking more about the book release in a second.

Firstly, I also want to just highlight the fact, use the term grit there as well. Cause as I was reading kind of some of the excerpts from the book that you sent us for this podcast, this concept of soul for marketing, I was being akin to kind of like how grit is to perseverance. And like, and if anyone's familiar with grit, it's like this, essentially this term that, well, we use it a lot nowadays, but Angela Duckworth, I think defined it between that.

That combination of passion, passion and perseverance. And I think you're kind of doing the same with soul here, right? It's the combination of art and science and, and, and humanity. So, you know, I, I did think you've almost created that model for marketing, um, which is, which is absolutely brilliant. Thank you for sharing that story with us there.

Cause it's something, you know, I do think as marketers, we need to share more. Like those Friday emails, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, an inspiration to me. I used to do something very similar, um, as, as well with my team. Um, and I got told that I, I wrote very long emails, um, and nobody really read them at the time, but that's cause I was also marketing them to developers and we are a unique bunch.

Um, so Suting, when, when is the book just for our listeners? When is the book coming out and how can they get hold of it?

Siew Ting Foo: It's open for pre order now, but, um, it will be available on 22nd of November, which is a couple more days in both, um, e book and also the physical book.

Jon Busby: Although you don't get to see the ripple effect if you buy the e book version, um, so I might have to, might have to get both, both versions.

Is there any like,

Harry Radcliffe: is that like 423 hertz or whatever it is, that ripple, or did you, did you put a lot of, uh Thought into it because there's, and, and some of my more esoteric circles on the internet, they, they actually are quite, quite particular about which ripples they use. It's all about like the different vibrations and stuff.

Siew Ting Foo: I think we need to have that conversation over a pint of Guinness or a glass of whiskey.